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JOBO: How fast is fast

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Bruce Osgood

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I have a Jobo CPE with 1 speed and off. I have always assumed the speed was considered fast and made compensations in developer dilutions to compensate.

Now I am wondering if I am correct.

My Jobo changes direction 17 times in one minute. Is that Fast or Slow?
 

pentaxuser

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I haven't timed mine but 17 changes sounds like the fast speed. I have always used this speed for both C41 film developing and RA4 paper with what I think is acceptable results, which make me wonder what the slow speed is for.

pentaxuser
 

juanito

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Hi,

I have a CPE-2 and it has 1, 0, 2 in it speed rotation selector.
In 1, (slow speed) it changes 14 times direction in one minute.
It is the speed I only use and it works well for devloping hp5 trix and tmax400
 

Iwagoshi

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Bruce,

My CPP has 7 speed settings: 7, 6, P, 4, 3, F, and an unspecified speed slower than F but not Off. Speeds F thru 4, rotate about 14-18 switches per minute. Speeds P thru 7 rotate about 20-24 switches per minute (I timed each speed for 30 seconds). I use the F speeds for film and the P settings for paper, less than F for pre-soaking the paper. Caveat: I'm new at this and have only developed ~20 rolls of film and ~40 sheets of paper, YMMV.

Terry
 

mrtoml

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I have 2 speeds on my Jobo CPE2. I only use the slow speed for developing black and white film. The fast speed is too uncontrollable for me and always results in way too contrasty negatives, but I believe that Jobo actually recommended the fast speed for negative development.
 

Alan9940

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Hello Bruce,

I've used the Jobo recommended speed settings for both the Expert Drums and roll film tanks (1500 and 2500) for years on my CPP and never had an issue with uneven development or too contrasty negs. Are you sure the speed settings on your CPE are working as expected? Or, do you have this baby plugged into some mega-watt power source??? :smile:
 

Neal

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Dear Bruce,

The high speed is around 75rpm. I don't know how this translates to reversals.

Neal Wydra
 

Lee L

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I have a 1982 vintage CPE-2 with speed markings of 1-0-2, slow-off-fast. IIRC, the 2 (fast) setting is supposed to be 75 RPM. Don't know the rotation count, and mine's boxed on a shelf right now. When I purchased mine, Jobo recommended the slow speed for film. This nearly always gave me streaking with the film/developer combinations I used, so I quit using it when I got back into a heated darkroom a month or two after I bought it.

My recollection is also that Jobo subsequently changed the CPE-2 to a single speed model, equivalent to the high speed only, to avoid these problems, which sounds like the model you have. They changed film development recommendations on the older models to high speed rotation. I didn't find out about this for almost 20 years, but it worked OK when I tested on the closest equivalent film that I could find to what I was using before. (The 1982 streaking problems had been on Verichrome Pan and Panatomic-X in 35mm and 120, and on Plus-X in 4x5.)

Much of this info was archived in newsletters on Jobo's web site before they shrank and changed US distributors. Not sure if it can still be found.

Lee
 

Lee L

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Thanks all,
Mine is a CPE-2 as Lee suggests. I'm going to continue thinking it turns in "Fast" and make whatever adjustments accordingly.

Actually, I think you may have a CPE-2+ , for which there is an online instruction manual: Dead Link Removed

Note that in the close up photos there, the motor switch has only 0 and 75 markings, off and 75rpm, the fast speed on dual speed models.

Also found the new home of the Jobo Quarterly newsletter: Dead Link Removed

Lee
 
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Lee L

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And now, from Jobo Quarterly, Dead Link Removed the dope on speeds:

What Speed is it Really?

by Ken Owen

Recently a JQ subscriber wrote and asked us to be more specific about processor settings when we write about film and paper processing tests. This is an excellent suggestion we will try to implement in the future. However, it caused me to think that perhaps it might be useful for you, the reader, if I described the various processors and how to "translate" rotation speeds for your machine.

First of all, let me make you aware that you do not need to get too fussy about the precise speeds in use. As a percentage of speed, it appears that an approximately 30% speed shift is required to show a significant difference in the densitometric tests of the resulting images. Years ago, we tested this very concept and found that the 75 rpm speed had to be slowed to about 50 rpm before we showed a 0.03 logD difference in the results. (0.03 logD is roughly equivalent to 1/10th of one ƒ stop.)

Another factor that will affect the speed of the rotation motor is the weight of the load on the motor. A 1526 Combo tank used to process one 8x10 print only needs 50 ml of solution, so there is not much drag on the motor. On the other hand, a 3005 Expert Drum for 8x10" sheet film may contain up to 1500 ml of solution. Plus, the vents on the bottom of the Expert drum draw in water from the processor’s water bath, so there can be a very large drag on the motor when using this drum. For best results, you will need to test your processor speed with the tank or drum loaded with the amount of solution you plan to use in the actual process. On the CPA-2 and CPP-2 manual processors and the ATL-1 AutoLab, this will make a difference in your speed setting. On AutoLab processors from the ATL-2 on up, the speed is microprocessor-controlled regardless of the weight of the drum load, so you don’t have to worry about it.

To test the rotation speed on the CPE-2 (not Plus) CPA-2 or CPP-2, begin by loading the tank/drum with the amount of solution you anticipate using. Then set the speed to the anticipated setting on the dial. Now swing the three-fingered switch out from behind the rotation motor’s magnet or gear. This will allow the motor to rotate in one direction only. (Note: Testing such as this is the only time we currently recommend single direction agitation. For all normal film processing we recommend bi-directional agitation.) Now with the tank/drum rotating, start a stop watch, and begin counting the revolutions by noting the passing of the label with each revolution. After one minute, you’ll know the rotation speed. Obviously you can also count the revolutions for 15 seconds and multiply by 4. But the point is this: it’s easier to determine the rotation speed than it is to take your pulse.

Now let’s get down to the particulars for each processor.

The DuoLab, CPE-2 Plus, ATL-1000 and ATL-1500, as well as the new ATL-500 and ATL-800, all run at a fixed speed of approximately 75 rpm. So there’s no rotation speed adjustments or testing needed here. (DuoLab owners will note that their agitation motor does not reverse direction. When we first saw this we were concerned about the possibility of streaks. However, after testing with BW, C-41 and E-6 films, we found no sign of streaking or bromide drag. We believe this is due to the limitation of small size tanks it is capable of handling. It works perfectly!)

The older CPE-2 processors had two rotation speeds, marked 1 and 2. They were approximately 25 and 65 rpm. There was some variation with individual units, but probably not enough to make any difference in your results. With magnet drive you can use either speed setting, but with the JOBO Lift you must use the #2 setting. The #1 setting doesn’t have enough power to keep on doing the rotation with the additional drag of the Lift arm. At least not for long.

The CPA-2 and CPP-2 have continuously variable speed controls. The dials are marked 0, F, 3, 4, P, 6, 7. Originally the F and P stood for film and paper. But with more research, Jobo learned that almost every process ran better at higher speeds. Today, we recommend as a basic guideline that all tanks or drums that couple to the lower spigot on the Lift arm be rotated at speed P, and that all drums that couple on the upper spigot, be rotated at speed 4. (Those of you running with the magnet coupling will use speed P for all tanks/drums.) These two speeds will be close to 75 and 50 rpm respectively. The single exception to this rule is that Ilfochrome prints should be rotated at speed F (approximately 25 rpm), to help hold down the contrast.

Those of you with AutoLab processors ATL-2 and higher know that you simply select the specific rpm setting you need, without any translation required. On earlier models you could select Quick Start, 25, 50, 75 or 100 rpm, or Disc. The Quick Start was an automatic speed variation program for Ilfochrome. It started out at 100 rpm for the first 25 seconds, and then slowed down to 25 rpm for the rest of the chemical time. For water rinses, it runs at 25 rpm the whole time. The Disc setting was 100 rpm in a single direction. Disc film needed a very high agitation, and reversing directions reduced the agitation somewhat.

Now you are fully armed with virtually all the rotation speed information. If you see any articles written about any JOBO processors that indicate some sort of speed setting, you should be able to convert that to useable information for your machine.

---------------------------
Since this is freely available on the internet, and not available by other means, I'm posting this as presumed fair use. Moderators feel free to cut back to the link only if that seems more proper. I'm thinking that there's no guarantee that the linked page will remain available in the long term, and the information is often sought out.

Lee
 

Sal Santamaura

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Well Lee, that certinally answers the question I had and some I didn't have till now...
It definitively answers the question you had. However, those with CPA-2 and CPP-2 processors who rely on that Jobo Quarterly alone could be mislead.

One must also know which motor is in the larger processors to correlate their speed dial settings with an actual rotation speed. See this link:

Dead Link Removed

For film in Expert drums using non-staining developers, something around 45 rpm is usually best. With staining developers, many run at 25 rpm to preclude oxidation.
 

pentaxuser

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Lee I'd like to echo the others' sentiments here in saying well done for taking the trouble to post this and the links. It's great that APUGers take the time and trouble to do such things for each other.

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

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P.S. For what it is worth I have just consulted a book called the Rotary Processor Manual in which the author says that the "F" position should not be used for ay film due to uneven development. The "P" position which has a rotational speed of about 70rpm avoids the risk of uneven development.

Just bear in mind that it would seem that at least one APUGer's experience is of too high a contrast at the higher speed. Maybe a big enough reduction in time can solve this. In the book I mentioned the author doesn't use any reduction but says that a pre-wet avoids the need to cut times. Ilford recommend up to 20% reduction, I think, for rotary processing. I wonder if this is based on the higher rotation speeds?

pentaxuser
 

mrtoml

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Just bear in mind that it would seem that at least one APUGer's experience is of too high a contrast at the higher speed. Maybe a big enough reduction in time can solve this. In the book I mentioned the author doesn't use any reduction but says that a pre-wet avoids the need to cut times. Ilford recommend up to 20% reduction, I think, for rotary processing. I wonder if this is based on the higher rotation speeds?

pentaxuser

I think that was me. I was having difficulties with development times with the film/dev combinations I was using. I couldn't get times long enough for my comfort zone with the fast speed. I find that with the slow speed I don't get streaking and I get times closer to the recommended times of the manufacturers (before the Ilford reduction of 15%).

I suspect that with different film/dev combinations the fast speed would be OK. I have never tried the presoak, but it sounds like that might be a solution.
 

Lee L

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There are several items in the Jobo Quarterlies addressing these problems. At first, no pre-soak was recommended, but Jobo couldn't find a single development time factor that worked for even a majority of films or developers without a pre-soak. Then Jobo found that with a pre-soak of five minutes for all films gave them the capacity to recommend rotary times for a majority of films that could be based on small tank times. After that, new films and the introduction of Xtol, with Kodak's published recommendations for specific times with rotary processing with no pre-soak, complicated things again. So Jobo's recommendations have changed over time with developments in the market.

There are only 24 of the Jobo Quarterlies, available online at the URLs given earlier, and the online ones have article topics listed in a pull-down index. So this information is available there.

My runs with the earlier Jobo recommendations consistently produced standing wave patterns at slow speed (25 RPM) on 35mm, 120, and 4x5 (with the 2509, not 2509N 4x5 reels) across a number of films and developers, including HC-110 and Rodinal at 1:100.

This was a year or two before expert drums and compatible processors came out, so it doesn't apply to that equipment. But I wasn't about to repurchase the same capabilities at 4-6 times the price of the CPE-2 + film drum + reels.

I also bought my unit in Germany and brought it back to the US after 9 months. So I wasn't a registered user and didn't get the newsletters or any updated info from Jobo USA. They were, however extremely helpful about sending me the correct parts to change my unit over to 120V 60Hz so that I could convert it myself. I have since used it mostly for color prints.

Lee
 
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