jobo for developing 4 X 5 negatives

johnnywalker · Jul 25, 2007

I used to develope my negatives in trays, then made up some tubes from an article I'd read (probably here). I then bought a Cibachrome developing outfit I found at a garage sale (almost free). Now I stick the smaller tubes inside the Cibachrome tubes (with some padding around them), at put it on the Cibachrome electric "turner" (for lack of the proper word). I have to turn out the lights when it comes time to change chemicals, then back on the "turner". I put fibreglass screen behind the negatives so that the chemicals can find the backs of the negatives and remove whatever chemicals are there and remove them. Sometimes the screen leaves an imprint on the negative backs however, and it's not easy getting the negatives inside the tube (my hand/eye coordination is not good, especially in the dark )
What advantages would a Jobo Expert Drum give me? I see a jobo 3010 on ebay for $275. Would I need anything else? Could I still use the Cibachrome "turner"?

kjsphoto · Jul 25, 2007

Consistency is the biggest advantage. I used to use trays also then went to a jobo and expert drums. Also once loaded you can work with the lights on and you can run I think 6 sheets at a time. I do not know if the Cibachrome turner will work or not, I ended up getting a jobo processing unit to use with the expert drums. Oh another thing I like about the jobo, NO STREAKING or lines from screens. Been there done that.

Hope that helps...

johnnywalker · Jul 25, 2007

Thanks Kevin, it does help. What does the "processing unit" actually do? If it just rotates the drum, and the cibachrome drum is approximately the same size, then the cibachrome unit ("turner") might work.

bdial · Jul 25, 2007

Usually the Jobo processors are equipped with their "lift" mechanism which allows you to drain and refill without removing the drum. Most of the CPP series processors I've seen on the auction thing have the lift. The processor also has a heater that tempers the water bath. Note that there are two series of the consumer processors, the CPP and CPE. The CPE isn't supposed to be used with an expert drum due to having a smaller motor.
Some folks here are using the smaller 2500 drum/tank with the Jobo reel that holds 6 4x5 sheets, and turning it on Cibachrome or Beseler motors.

kjsphoto · Jul 25, 2007

My has a lift on it so make pouring the chems easy and a tempered bath to keep it consistent.

I guess the Ciba or Beseler would work, but I have no idea.

Changeling1 · Jul 25, 2007

JOBO 3010 Expert drums

johnnywalker said:
Thanks Kevin, it does help. What does the "processing unit" actually do? If it just rotates the drum, and the cibachrome drum is approximately the same size, then the cibachrome unit ("turner") might work.

Drums used on a Jobo CPP or CPA processor doesn't just rotate round and round- rather the drum rotates forward a couple of times and then backward once or twice which gives the film the benefit of even development. It's an action that can't be done on any other machine or manually quite to the same effect. The accessory Jobo lift arm makes changing the chemicals neat, easy, and timely. If you're working with color film, slides or paper- the tempering bath arrangement is just about perfect. The 3010 drum is an engineering wonder in itself but really needs to be used on a CPP-CPA processor with the latest revision motor due to its size and weight. Loading 4x5 film into the 3010 drum is exceptionally easy. I've noticed that once photographers start using the Jobo- they shoot more film and put more miles on the processor making the stronger motor all the more advisable. Jobo used to sell an upgrade kit to bring an early model processor up-to-date for about $350 and is probably still available. Just something to keep in mind when buying a used processor off the auction site or elsewhere.

Lee L · Jul 26, 2007

Changeling1 said:
It's an action that can't be done on any other machine or manually quite to the same effect.

The Beseler motor base has a switch that allows you to choose either continuous (single direction) or reversing action. That's equivalent to the direction switching done on my CPE-2. The only issue with using the Jobo Expert drums with this base would be whether the drum is long enough to straddle both sets of rollers on the base. I don't have an Expert drum, so can't advise on that. It does work with my stainless 4 roll film tanks (continuous agitation for fixer).

Lee

johnnywalker · Jul 26, 2007

Thanks for the input. If I understand this correctly, if I were successful in getting this unit alone, without any other jobo equipment,

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOBO-2551Tank-W...ryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the negatives would be easier to load than my present system, would be less likely to suffer damage, and would be able to develope up to 12 negatives at a time (instead of two as I do now). But I would still have to turn the lights out to change chemicals and I would have to take my chances on rotating the drum in one direction only.

I only do black and white, and it is very unlikely I'll ever do my own colour.

Thanks again for all the help!

Cor · Jul 26, 2007

John,

Be aware that there are 2 different models of the 4*5 reels. On the picture it seems the old version, the new version (#2509N) has two black "retainers"which give better , even development. The old reel does work, but Jobo adiviced to load only 4 sheets, and leave the middle slots empty. Loading those reels require some practice (there is a base loader for it, but i do not use it)

johnnywalker said:
Thanks for the input. If I understand this correctly, if I were successful in getting this unit alone, without any other jobo equipment,

Best,

Cor

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOBO-2551Tank-W...ryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the negatives would be easier to load than my present system, would be less likely to suffer damage, and would be able to develope up to 12 negatives at a time (instead of two as I do now). But I would still have to turn the lights out to change chemicals and I would have to take my chances on rotating the drum in one direction only.

I only do black and white, and it is very unlikely I'll ever do my own colour.

Thanks again for all the help!

Nick Zentena · Jul 26, 2007

johnnywalker said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/JOBO-2551Tank-W...ryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the negatives would be easier to load than my present system, would be less likely to suffer damage, and would be able to develope up to 12 negatives at a time (instead of two as I do now). But I would still have to turn the lights out to change chemicals and I would have to take my chances on rotating the drum in one direction only.

That's not an expert but a 2500 series tank.

You don't need to turn off the lights after the tank is loaded. The 2553 will fit a unicolor and I expect a beseler motor just peachy. You can use it for colour if you temper your chemicals. It'll handle all formats smaller then 4x5. The seller is wrong to call that a 2551. The 2551 has a red rubber stopper. The red rubber stopper versions works better on a motorbase then the cog version in that auction. You can replace the lid or go buy a rub stopper to fit the hole.

I'm guessing those are the older 2509 reels. I don't see the inserts.

bdial · Jul 26, 2007

Sometimes the ebay prices on ebay exceed the new price for the same stuff. I'm not sure whether there is a two reel kit, but there is a single reel kit which available from B&H or Calumet (and other Jobo dealers).

TheFlyingCamera · Jul 26, 2007

The Expert drums are by far the easiest to load. The 3010 is so named because it will hold up to 10 sheets of 4x5 at a time. I have a 3010, a 3005 (for up to 5 sheets of 8x10), and a 3063, which is designed for very large prints, but can be used for ULF film as well.

With Jobo drums, I would be very careful with buying them on ebay because it is common to see them sell for close to if not more than new. B&H, Calumet and Freestyle are all Jobo dealers. Check their prices on the specific drum set you're looking at before bidding on Ebay.

I can't see the auction in question (ebay is blocked at the firewall at my office), but it is possible for a 25xx drum to have the cog lid - the CPA/CPP processors can use either the 25xx series or the 3000 series (Expert) drums with the lift. If you do not have a lift, you use the large rubber cap lids, and the magnet drive which attaches to the bottom of the drum. The Expert drums do not have a magnet attachment, so they MUST be used with a lift. The lift for the CPE is a smaller lift which does not have the dual coupling of the CPA/CPP, and the Expert drums will not fit the lower coupling on the CPE lift. Also, the CPE will not handle as long a drum as the CPA/CPP. The motor in the CPE is not beefy enough to turn a fully loaded Expert drum.

Another advantage to the Expert drums is the reduced volume of chemistry required to process your film. If you are doing large volumes of film, the Expert drums will save you money in the long term. The Expert drums are also designed with a water jacket internally- when you put the Expert drum in the tempering bath, water flows into the outer layer of the drum, helping to keep the chemistry inside tempered to a constant temperature.

Jim Chinn · Jul 26, 2007

I have used the 2500 tanks on a CPE plus for several years and never had a problem. With a little practice they are easy to load. If I want to use stand development or hand agitiation I use a rubber chemistry stopper for the open end. I would love to upgrade to the expert drums but cost is a factor. One thing to remember with the Jobo reels is not to immerse them in a solution with photo-flo. It is extremely difficult to rinse off and if it stays on and dries it allows gunk to accumulate on the reels.

Mahler_one · Jul 26, 2007

Jobo CPP and 4x5

As a beginner in LF please allow me to add my 2 cents worth. For 4x5 processing, the ease of using the CPP Processor with the Expert Drums and lift is probably unsurpassed. Obviously there are other very acceptable and excellent methods to process 4x5 and larger film. For 4x5 film, one very good option is, apparently, the CPE processor with the relevant reels. However, there have been some reports on this thread that the learning curve needed to load such reels is just a bit extended, and apparently there are some times issues involved with uneven development. The loading of the tanks for the expert system is simplicity itself, and yes, even a Cave Man can do it! Morover, once the CPP system is in place, the options for using such system for larger formats is available. The 8x10 expert drum is apparently similar in use to the 4x5 drum. Using an expert drum for 11x14 is apparently a different issue; not having any experience in using such format, or the relevant drum, I don't feel qualified to comment.

Might I add a caveat: As others have stated, please consider limiting the weight you subject your CPP2 motor to. It might be better to consider developing a smaller number of negatives at a time so that the volume of solution is also limited. Less solution equals, of course, less weight and hence less stress on the motor. I know that reapirs on the unit are available at Omega-Satter ( the new USA Jobo reps ), but it is hard to be without one's unit for a lengthy time, and the expense can't be small. Also, don't over look the comments made here concerning the age of whatever CPP unit you are buying. The older units do have a stronger and updated motor. I do not recall what the "magic serial number" is, but perhaps others here can provide some guidance.

Please let us know what you decide, and how "things" are going.

Edwin

Rolleiflexible · Jul 26, 2007

johnnywalker said:
Thanks for the input. If I understand this correctly, if I were successful in getting this unit alone, without any other jobo equipment,

http://cgi.ebay.com/JOBO-2551Tank-W...ryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the negatives would be easier to load than my present system, would be less likely to suffer damage, and would be able to develope up to 12 negatives at a time (instead of two as I do now). But I would still have to turn the lights out to change chemicals and I would have to take my chances on rotating the drum in one direction only.

I only do black and white, and it is very unlikely I'll ever do my own colour.

Thanks again for all the help!

I use this tank for my 4x5 work, and 3006 expert tanks for my 5x7 work.

I chose the 2551 over the 3010 expert tank for two reasons: higher capacity (12 sheets vs. 10) and lower cost ($100 less). The 3010 expert tanks are a bit faster to load, but not by much. I see no difference in consistency between the two types of tanks.

For B+W work, forget about the Jobo base units. They are big and expensive and you do not need their complexity. Tempering baths, reverse-action, automated pour and fill -- all completely unnecessary for B+W work. You are on the right track -- turn the tanks on a small used Beseler or Unicolor or Chromega base.

Once the tanks are loaded, they are like any other day tank -- you pour chemicals in and out through the top, which has a light baffle built in. You do it all in daylight. Easy as pie.

I've used both types of tanks to process literally thousands of sheets this way. I've never had a problem. Not once.

An earlier poster made an apt observation -- using these tanks will change the way you shoot in 4x5. Suddenly, you can burn film secure in the knowledge that you can process it all in less than an hour over your kitchen sink. I would never have shot exclusively in large format for so many years had I not had the benefit of Jobo tanks.

Sanders

johnnywalker · Jul 26, 2007

I've just ordered the following from Freestyle, together with a hand-rolling mechanism in case my Cibachrome roller base gives up the ghost.

Jobo #4342 Sheet Film Kit Includes the following:

1 - #2551 Tank
1 - #2512 4x5" Guide
1 - #2508 Loader Base
2 - #2509N 4x5" Sheet Film Reel

Total cost delivered is US$220. Even if I could have found a used one cheaper on Ebay, it sounds like its worth the peace of mind to know exactly what is going to arrive.

Thanks for all your help everybody. I'll let you know how it works out. I'm sure it will be great, but if not I can always say to my Financial Controller, "those guys on APUG made me do it".

Nick Zentena · Jul 26, 2007

Do you have a timer hooked up to the roller? The Gralab 300 I've got attached to mine makes it a dream -)

Mahler_one · Jul 26, 2007

4x5

Best of luck with your new purchases. Keep us informed about how things are going.

Edwin

Cor · Jul 27, 2007

Sanders McNew said:
I've used both types of tanks to process literally thousands of sheets this way. I've never had a problem. Not once.

Sanders

Hi Sanders,

I too use a 25XX tank and a 2501n reel (with the inserts), but occasionally I do see some weirdness at the long edges of my 4*5 negatives. Sometimes some "swirl" patterns (added density) at the very long edges, sometimes a lot of extra density at the spot were the film is near the "extensions" within the reel, as if there was a lot of turbulence causing extra density.

I usually process in PyrocatHD using the slow rotation setting of my Jobo CPE2

Best,

Coir

Bob F. · Jul 27, 2007

Slow rotation speed has been linked to uneven development and Jobo recommend using only the high speed setting on a CPE2. However, that might cause too much oxidization in the case of Pyrocat HD, so it's a bit of a Catch-22 situation in that case.

I use the 25xx series reels and tanks on a CPE2 with lift, mostly using ID11, with no problems. I don't have the loader so can't comment on that but find little difficulty loading the reels by hand - even the clips are easy once you figure out how to feel for the correct position.

I make a point of popping my Jobo and Paterson reels back in the photo-flo solution until I have hung the negs up to dry and then thoroughly rinsing the reels and tanks etc under the hot water tap.

Good luck, Bob.

Rolleiflexible · Jul 27, 2007

Cor said:
Hi Sanders,

I too use a 25XX tank and a 2501n reel (with the inserts), but occasionally I do see some weirdness at the long edges of my 4*5 negatives. Sometimes some "swirl" patterns (added density) at the very long edges, sometimes a lot of extra density at the spot were the film is near the "extensions" within the reel, as if there was a lot of turbulence causing extra density.

I usually process in PyrocatHD using the slow rotation setting of my Jobo CPE2

Best,

Coir

I'm always processing sheets in Rodinal -- I don't know enough about pyro to know if the developer makes a difference in this respect. Sanders

Rolleiflexible · Jul 27, 2007

Bob F. said:
Slow rotation speed has been linked to uneven development and Jobo recommend using only the high speed setting on a CPE2. However, that might cause too much oxidization in the case of Pyrocat HD, so it's a bit of a Catch-22 situation in that case.

I use the 25xx series reels and tanks on a CPE2 with lift, mostly using ID11, with no problems. I don't have the loader so can't comment on that but find little difficulty loading the reels by hand - even the clips are easy once you figure out how to feel for the correct position.

I make a point of popping my Jobo and Paterson reels back in the photo-flo solution until I have hung the negs up to dry and then thoroughly rinsing the reels and tanks etc under the hot water tap.

Good luck, Bob.

Bob, you should rethink dipping the reels in Photo-flo. The stuff acts as an accelerant in the developing process. Unless you are washing the reels thoroughly afterward, it will stay on the reels and add density to the edges of the negatives in the next batch. That might be the source of the added edge density you are attributing to rotation speed. Sanders

Bob F. · Jul 27, 2007

Sanders McNew said:
Bob, you should rethink dipping the reels in Photo-flo. The stuff acts as an accelerant in the developing process. Unless you are washing the reels thoroughly afterward, it will stay on the reels and add density to the edges of the negatives in the next batch. That might be the source of the added edge density you are attributing to rotation speed. Sanders

It's actually a Jobo recommendation to use the higher speed, not mine (I wouldn't be so forward... ).

My main thought being that I don't want the stuff to dry on the reels so I just pop them back in while hanging the film up and then rinse afterwards in hot water. I break the reels apart to make sure I give them a good rinse in flowing hot water afterwards (along with the clips and tank). Like you, I've never had a problem with the 25xx system (in my case only about 200 sheets).

Cheers, Bob.

fhovie · Jul 27, 2007

Just get the tanks and reels. You will get sharper prints without the constant motion of the developer. Jobo tanks are wonderful. I can do up to 18 4x5 sheets at a time with the extention tube. I also only do B&W.

johnnywalker · Jul 29, 2007

Just a note to recommend Freestyle. I ordered the product on their website, but had an immediate email telling me because it was an international order, they would have to clear it with my bank which would take 1 to 7 days. Curious, I thought, and phoned them to see what the problem was. The nice fellow I got on the phone said the problem was already resoved, and my order was on its way, and later got an email confirming this. The next day I see the item I ordered was "not in stock", so I must have got the last one, and their website was updated in a very short time.
A very classy company to deal with.

jobo for developing 4 X 5 negatives

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