Jobo and 4x5

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

I'm looking at 4X5 as a real possibility and wondering which of the 2 different methods Jobo offers folks are finding simplest and most reliable with their processing. There are Expert Tanks and 2509 reels with regular 2500 tanks. And so I'm wondering which is easier to deal with in terms of loading and unloading in particular. With 120 my experience was that there was a significant learning curve in loading... until I found some guidance recommending the 2500 tank's reels (as opposed to the 1500 which work great for 35mm but were a struggle for me with 120 rolls).

Yes there are the mod54 (for Patterson) and SP-445 tanks for a more manual approach, but I seem to get more consistent results with non-manual approaches.

Thanks in advance!

cowanw · Apr 1, 2019

Hands down, the expert tanks; but it costs. Well worth in my hands.

mshchem · Apr 1, 2019

I use both. I use IR goggles to load the reels, no problem when you can see. The Expert tanks are great but washing is tedious . I have 3005, 3006 and 3010 tanks they work great. The 2509n reels make washing easy.
I know some workers transfer film to hangers for washing with Expert tanks. I wash on the machine.

Neal · Apr 1, 2019

I use the 25XX tanks with the Jobo loading jig for 4x5 inside a Photoflex changing tent, loading up to 12 sheets at a time. There have been zero issues with uneven development.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

Alan9940 · Apr 1, 2019

I’ve never used the 2509, but I love my Expert Drums!

minh0204 · Apr 1, 2019

Loading the 2509 reel is no more difficult than loading a 120 roll on Jobo's spirals. I have very good, even results with it. I'd say the Jobo 2509 set up with a CPE2 is most economical for home 4x5 processing. Expert tanks require bigger machines, both will cost you dearly.

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

minh0204: Thanks for bringing that up: Hardware.

So of course now I'm wondering which machines will work? I've got a CPE2+ with a LIFT. Won't this work with either the 3006 or 3010 tanks for 4X5?

Oren Grad · Apr 1, 2019

JWMster said:
So of course now I'm wondering which machines will work? I've got a CPE2+ with a LIFT. Won't this work with either the 3006 or 3010 tanks for 4X5?

No. The Expert drums won't fit on a CPE. They need a CPA or CPP.

minh0204 · Apr 1, 2019

JWMster said:
minh0204: Thanks for bringing that up: Hardware.

So of course now I'm wondering which machines will work? I've got a CPE2+ with a LIFT. Won't this work with either the 3006 or 3010 tanks for 4X5?

No, only the bigger machines (e.g. CPP, CPA, ATL3) will work with Expert tanks. In fact, the older CPPs and CPAs won't work because the motor is underpowered.
http://www.jobo-usa.com/resources/faq/18-why-are-jobo-cpa2-cpp2-serial-numbers-important

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

h, good to know that's the case. I think I just saved a bunch of $'s or at least avoided having to do an exchange. How many 2509n reels will fit a 2550 tank which normally accommodates 3 2500 reels of 120 just fine? Anyone know?

Doc W · Apr 1, 2019

JWMster said:
minh0204: Thanks for bringing that up: Hardware.

So of course now I'm wondering which machines will work? I've got a CPE2+ with a LIFT. Won't this work with either the 3006 or 3010 tanks for 4X5?

It sounds to me like you would perfectly happy with a CPE-2, which does not take Expert Druns. When I shot only 4x5, I used a CPE and its various drums with no problems. I only got a CPP when I wanted to do 8x10 and 5x7. Sure, the Expert Drums are easier to use but the 4x5 drums for the CPE are just fine.

A used CPE-2 in really nice condition is a LOT less than a CPA/CPP in excellent condition, so unless you think you will be doing larger format, the CPE is definitely the more economical choice.

minh0204 · Apr 1, 2019

JWMster said:
h, good to know that's the case. I think I just saved a bunch of $'s or at least avoided having to do an exchange. How many 2509n reels will fit a 2550 tank which normally accommodates 3 2500 reels of 120 just fine? Anyone know?

http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/tank_and_drum_capacities.pdf

Page 4 of the PDF. Basically, 255x (aka multireel tank 5) will take 2x 2509n for a total of 12 sheets. However you should really watch out for minimum capacity of dev and make sure it does not exceed your machine maximum capacity.

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

Doc: That's what I have from our friend Omer Hecht at Cat Labs, and it's been great for everything I've thrown at it. A move to 4X5 would be something new to me. I'm just trying to get a handle on all that's involved. Have my eye on one of Steve Lloyd's new Chroma cameras, and a checking out the feasibility. We're a few months out until we settle in a new shack, but a fellow can dream.

Thanks everyone. This has been VERY helpful.

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

minh0204: Thanks! Often, I've checked with Omer Hecht up at Cat Labs when I have trouble reading these crazy charts, and he's been a great resource. Thanks!

Doc W · Apr 1, 2019

A lot of people move to 4x5 expecting a large increase in sharpness and resolution. If you have a good MF system, 4x5 will not offer that much of a increase, depending on print size. I often forget which format I used when looking a print from a few years back.

However, there are two major advantages in using 4x5. First, you can expose and develop each sheet of film differently, unlike roll film, and this allows for much more control over density. Second, depending on the camera, you will also have movements which allow for greater control over perspective and depth of field.

Omer Hecht at CatLabs is indeed a good contact for all things Jobo. He is a man of few words but he is very helpful and really knows his stuff.

MattKing · Apr 1, 2019

Owning one of those Expert tanks makes you really look like a serious photographer!
Have you seen one? Relatively speaking, they are huge!

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

Doc: Thanks for the encouragement. I think it's the camera movements and the process that intrigues, and learning to work with longer exposures, and greater control over depth of field. Every "stretch" I've done in format has tended to push the game forward, understanding, composition, technique, etc. in ways that benefit the others. There's a period of immersion after which the other formats provide refreshers.

JWMster · Apr 1, 2019

Matt: No I haven't. Maybe it's like having a 600mm lens so the wedding folks will think you know what you're doing... when it may just be that the only thing you know is that you have this humongous honking lens.

mshchem · Apr 1, 2019

I really like the 2509n reels. I have the loading rig. Used as instructed works perfectly. I have some minor numbness in my hands, I use IR goggles for everything anymore. The only step I need IR for is attaching the black panels. I'm easily confused . Best thing about using the reels is you can stick a hose down the center column (like Paterson ) and wash the daylights out of the film, off the machine. I have a couple of the Gravity Works syphon washers that take the 25xx series reels. I usually just use a rubber hose hooked to the faucet, works great, the fancy washers use a lot of water. If you get the urge for 8x10 Omer sells the CL-81 reel that fits 25xx tanks and holds 3 sheets of 8x10.

shutterfinger · Apr 1, 2019

I use 2521 tanks, 2509 reels, and an extension for the 2521 on occasion on a manual roller base. I bought mine before Jobo filed for bankruptcy and reorganized
I use the Photoflex Changing Room tent, lay the 2509 on edge with the film slots up and away from me. I hold the film by edge, count the slots and load the furthest away from me first leaving the last 1/4 inch or so sticking out of the reel until the 3 slots on that side are filled then feel the gap between the sheets for evenness then push them all the way into the reel if even, correct if not, turn the reel over and repeat, then install the end plates, its easy to feel the ends of the film and the bumps the plates attach to.
I use 300 ml of chemical as the stated 270ml minimum sometimes leaves unevenness or streaks.
For manual rotation I start with fingertip and push to heel of the palm, switch hands and repeat for 1 minute, switch to heel of hand to finger tip for the next minute. When I take my time I get 50 to 60 revolutions per minute. I tested with 15, 30, and 45 second intervals for switching direction before going to 1 minute with no difference in results for B&W, C41, or E6.
I use rapid fixer and Ilford archival wash modified to 15 second first fill, 30 second second fill, 40 second third fill, and a 4th for 50 seconds to 1 minute depending on how I feel. (I'm in my 60's).

mshchem · Apr 1, 2019

I have a heck of a time feeling with my fingertips. On the newest cameras the shutter release is so smooth I have to look to find it at times. I need to put a tiny spot of something to feel. I'm 62 but this has been going on with me since I was in my 20's.

Here's a video I made, these are toys but work fine. I need eyeglasses to see, these are my "darkroom readers" These are available used on Ebay for less than 50 bucks

Sirius Glass · Apr 1, 2019

cowanw said:
Hands down, the expert tanks; but it costs. Well worth in my hands.

Alan9940 said:
I’ve never used the 2509, but I love my Expert Drums!

After trying a number of sheet film tanks that I bought and returned to Free Style I ended up with the 3010 Expert Drum. I am very happy with the ease of use and consistent results that I have gotten over a decade. The Expert Drums are well worth the cost especially amortized over time.

Kshaub103 · Apr 1, 2019

No experience with expert tank tho im looking at one for my 8x10 sheet, but for 4x5 I use the 2509 reels without the retaining parts and have never had an issue. If im only doing a small run I use the print drum 2523 for developing like you would with paper and have had great success. Im interest in the Chinese knock-off that are on eBay.

Kshaub103 · Apr 1, 2019

Mshchem, What pair of goggles are you using?

JWMster · Apr 2, 2019

Found a Jobo 2508 and 2512 on eBay to help with the 2509n reels. "And so it starts!" Yeah... another one of my "Yeah... I'll do X but never Y" statements fails. Looks like we're headed towards doing Y (Large Format) and my wife will say, "Looks like I told you so....again."
Worse things could happen, right?

Jobo and 4x5

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