Jobo 4X5 users: Shot logs (not glasses) and Keeping Track

[JWMster]

So I'm using Jobo 2500 series tanks and 4X5 (2509) reels, and mystified about how to best keep track of what I shot and relating it back to my notes. Maybe it would be a problem if separate runs were made for N, N+1 and N-1 processing and that was all I wanted to reconnect with, but in broader learning... and relating shots back to my notes I'm having trouble making it all work. This wasn't a big deal with MF 'cause I could keep track by content and then know which film was on which reel, which reel was at the top of the spindle and which at the bottom, but there's nothing quite like that with sheet film where every shot is a freelancer.

So if you process your 4X5 or I guess even 8X10 on reels and have faced these issues... I wonder what you've done, and would love to hear your insight on how to deal with this. Yes, the answer in some cases might be trays, but I think that would tend to LOSE anything gained as my processing would shift back to tanks once any "learning" were "done". So a switch of processing isn't exactly what I'm looking for. Don't have that sort of darkroom anyway... nice as it might be.

But I appreciate your thoughts - even if they are to switch to another hobby / line of work / train of thought / etc.

Stay safe out there!

 

[Alan9940]

Maybe this isn't a direct answer to your question, but the way I've kept track is to snip a corner off each film recording which is which. For example, I'll snip the film notch corner on the first sheet, then work my way around clock-wise for each subsequent sheet. If I'm doing >4 at a time, I'll snip two top, two bottom, etc. I'm sure you get the idea. Any help?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

You need to notch your holders so the negs are marked. Basically you take a file to the underside of the flap. The system I use I think was in Way Beyond Monochrome, but it has been a long time so I might be wrong. I have a small ruler marked every half centimeter and a numbering system of 1,2,4,8,12,32 and one centimeter later for B. Then I notch accordingly. There are other ways of doing it though if you don't like that one. Some people use different shaped files, some use binary. It doesn't matter how you do it though as long as you are consistent. The notches obviously expose a small wedge outside the image area so you can trace back any sheet of film to the holder it was shot in and the side too. And not to be obvious, but you need to number your holders accordingly. Besides making it easier to keep track of your images, it is also useful if you discover a light leak. You'll know what holder is leaking, and what side of the holder too.

Hope that helps you.

 

[JWMster]

Patrick: I have that book and will check it when I'm home tonight (after I read "Bullfrog" to my grand dauthter via Facetime).

Yes, my holders are all numbered. But let me try to understand a bit more if I may on your excellent suggestion.
1) Are you notching the film BEFORE loading it into the holders? or are you modifying the holders so that the HOLDER produces a mark somehow in the film.... like modifying the flap to notch the short end on closing it? This would be ingenious, but not without some risks perhaps.
2) And and are you doing this on either the left upper (as opposed to film manufacturer's right upper) short side, or on a long side? (answer to # 1 may indicate the answer to # 2)

Gee... this sort of insight and experience is exactly why this list is amazing. Even if it's "been a long time" since you shot LF... this is the type of suggestion that starts the mind turning. Thank you!

 

[JWMster]

Maybe this isn't a direct answer to your question, but the way I've kept track is to snip a corner off each film recording which is which. For example, I'll snip the film notch corner on the first sheet, then work my way around clock-wise for each subsequent sheet. If I'm doing >4 at a time, I'll snip two top, two bottom, etc. I'm sure you get the idea. Any help?

Alan: Actually this is a pretty direct answer. I was working out part of the idea in my mind driving in this morning... the part about changing the load sequence from slot 1, 2, 3 and then rotate and instead using 1, rotate for 1 on the other side with shot 2, then rotate to slow 2 on the 1st side fill it and then rotate to slow 2 on the other and fill that... which I think is what you're suggesting. Yeah... and corner snips starts to lay out a routine similar to Patricks... but I'm thinking maybe pin holes? as smaller, and possibly something that could be setup with a jig to be precise and as minimally invasive as possible (read less prone to "oops" I just cut my image). Great suggestion, thanks!!!

 

[Adrian Bacon]

You need to notch your holders so the negs are marked. Basically you take a file to the underside of the flap. The system I use I think was in Way Beyond Monochrome, but it has been a long time so I might be wrong. I have a small ruler marked every half centimeter and a numbering system of 1,2,4,8,12,32 and one centimeter later for B. Then I notch accordingly. There are other ways of doing it though if you don't like that one. Some people use different shaped files, some use binary. It doesn't matter how you do it though as long as you are consistent. The notches obviously expose a small wedge outside the image area so you can trace back any sheet of film to the holder it was shot in and the side too. And not to be obvious, but you need to number your holders accordingly. Besides making it easier to keep track of your images, it is also useful if you discover a light leak. You'll know what holder is leaking, and what side of the holder too.

Hope that helps you.

that’s what I do/did. All my film holders that I use for work that I care about have a unique number of notches in each flap.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Patrick: I have that book and will check it when I'm home tonight (after I read "Bullfrog" to my grand dauthter via Facetime).

Yes, my holders are all numbered. But let me try to understand a bit more if I may on your excellent suggestion.
1) Are you notching the film BEFORE loading it into the holders? or are you modifying the holders so that the HOLDER produces a mark somehow in the film.... like modifying the flap to notch the short end on closing it? This would be ingenious, but not without some risks perhaps.
2) And and are you doing this on either the left upper (as opposed to film manufacturer's right upper) short side, or on a long side? (answer to # 1 may indicate the answer to # 2)

Gee... this sort of insight and experience is exactly why this list is amazing. Even if it's "been a long time" since you shot LF... this is the type of suggestion that starts the mind turning. Thank you!

You notch the flap on the holder on the side that contacts the film so every sheet gets the imprint of the notch, assuming light hits that area. It is obviously permanent, so don't go crazy with the notches. Lol. You only need a millimeter or so. I use an angled file so it makes a V shaped notch, but again, you can do whatever.

IIRC now that I am thinking about it, this numbering method is supposed to be the most efficient meaning the least number of notches.

Remember when you do the notches that they will be backwards if you look at the neg from the correct side. I erred (a rare occurrence!) and did them without thinking of that, so when I read them I have to do it from the backside. Not a big deal, but you might as well do it right if you are going to do it... One of these days I'll make a notch guide that is reversed so I can just read them from the front. Actually, now is a good time to do that. Got nothing else to do....

Here is what the notches look like. There are notches for B,12,8,1 read backwards because I am a doofus. So this if from holder 21 on the B side. Easy peasy!

And here is what the ruler I made to notch them and read them looks like. I start on the 1/4" mark at the edge of the neg. I thought i did it in centimeters but it looks like I did it in inches. Crude, but it works! I went to 32 since I have 30-something holders, but if you are a masochist and have a million holders, you could keep going up. 64, 128, etc, or whatever those next numbers are supposed to be. i am not a mathematician...

Hope that helps you. I imagine you will spend the day with a file in your hand.

 

[JWMster]

Y'know... took me a while to figure this from the photo, but if I have it right, you're allowing light to hit the film and make an exposure mark on the film, right? Much as you did this with a notch, you could have done it with a #0001 size drill hole worked carefully, and perhaps less destructively... if I'm think right. Don't know how much of the flap is exposed to light within the camera, but it appears to be more than I think. Will have to ponder the mechanics of this more... and look at my holders when I get home tonight.

FWIW, at the moment I have only 6 holders. This gives me 12 sheets, and I have only 2 reels (2509) to load. So it's a natural thing, and I'm not trying to keep track of more than that. But then again, I am on the waiting list for a Chamonix holder... so the likelihood is the # goes up from here. Maybe not much, but if weight were not an object (LOL) it'd be "sweet" to have a holder of color follow me around and show up when I need it one day.

Typically, I'm unloading the film holders and storing the film in "party invitation" A7 size envelopes marked with the location + date corresponding to my notebook, putting the envelopes in a file box; file box then goes in a dark garbage bag, and the whole into a refrigerator shelf in the basement until I can process it. Aim is to shoot on the weekends, and process in the evenings. Doesn't usually work out that way... but a guy can dream.

Thanks for this. Yes it all helps. And I gotta say... why ISN'T this in the Large Format books? I have four or more and not seen a word on it. But sometimes, fairly, I have to stare at something a number of times before I literally see that X is meant for me to pay attention rather than the Y thing I'm looking for in the book. Never happens to anyone else, right? But sure does in my case. So thanks for the jump start. Very, very helpful.

 

[MattKing]

Do I recall correctly that there is at least one line of film holders that offers rotatable wheels that allow you to set them to a particular number, which results in a particular number being exposed on the edge of the film?

 

[Bob S]

Do I recall correctly that there is at least one line of film holders that offers rotatable wheels that allow you to set them to a particular number, which results in a particular number being exposed on the edge of the film?

Riteway used numbered wheels on their last series of holders but those holders won’t work on all cameras. They also have an automatic dark slide lock that would not unlock in Linhof cameras.
Linhof made DS sheet film holders and DS glass plate/sheet film holders with numbered friskits in the holder that numbered sheets from 1 to 12, depending on the holder. The advantage to their system was that the dark slides were numbered to match. The Riteway system only numbered the film so, if you pulled more then 1 slide you would never know which side of which holder it came from.

 

[JWMster]

Patrick: Way Beyond Monochrome page 463. Thanks!

Only downside to this is that there seem to be very small notches in every FIdelity Elite 4X5 holder I have. All of them are the same, and so it seems to be something that may be part of the original molding? In any case, they do not seem to have any impact on the exposed images as they are VERY small. Of course, this only raises the challenge. Ralph Lambrecht's book calls for using 1/8th inch notches 1/4-inch apart.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

There are holders, like the Grafmatics, that have number wheels. Other holders I've seen with tabs. They both s@ck. They stick out into the image. I took a pair of pliers to the 6 Grafmatics I have and ripped them out. Horrible design, but I guess for a press photographer it worked ok. I think the notch idea is the simplest most elegant solution. Occam's Razor, ya know?

 

[JWMster]

Okay... here's a question: My holders are all new-to-me and therefore I'm seeing little notches on them on the underside of the flap in the same place the Monochrome book would have me add new notches. Most look like factory molding, On one or two clearly they are user notches. I'm puzzled whether I need to get "new", unnotched" holders as a starting point, or what you folks have done? Did some looking around and new ain't cheap. Yipes! but if that's the price of knowing what you're shooting.... well... you bite the bullet? I've looked at Chamonix holders ( don't look like they have the hinged end ) and this wooden version. ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wood-Sheet...293729&hash=item288940c2b9:g:W8IAAOSw-XJdvMEw ). Ebay... love another guy selling "mint" ("like new") film holders that are clearly NOT.

I have to wonder why someone didn't just make a film holder - 3D printing and all - that answers the need? Sure are enough folks coming into LF to justify it. And if all the holders out there... if 90% or more really are ancient history... then it's a mystery.

 

[Pioneer]

If I am really interested in identifying a specific negative when working with 4x5 then I don't find it all that difficult to do it.

My first and oldest method, used when I was beginning with 4x5 (and 8x10) was to only develop one negative at a time. I still use this technique occasionally and it is very easy to do with trays. I just pull the negative and toss it in the soup. In short order I have a negative I can look at. It is a bit slow but you can actually learn quite a bit in a given day because you can leave your trays set up through the day. Of course this will require a dedicated darkroom, or at least a bathroom where you can leave your trays set up for longer than just a few minutes at a time.

Lately I develop 4 negatives at a time in my SP-445 daylight tank. One of the SP-445 holders will hold two sheets of film and I just use one holder from the developer tank to hold two sheets from the film holder. My film holders are numbered and the low number goes to the outside and the next higher number goes to the inside. Because the SP-445 is designed in such a way that the lid has to go on in the same way each time, with the protrusions in the lid and tank matching up when you put the lid on, I just mentally track whether the SP-445 holder was slid into the tank with that protrusion to the right or left. This is much more complicated to describe than it is to actually do it. In other words, Sheet #7 is on the outside of the holder and sheet #8 is on the inside of the holder with the protrusion on lid and tank to my left. It won't move around during development because the lid stays on. So when I do pull the lid once everything is done I know that sheet #7 will be found on the outside of the tank with the protrusion on the left. I think you get the idea.

Obviously developing one sheet at a time takes less tracking but using the SP-445 tank isn't too hard either and you can develop more film at one time.

Once the negatives are dry you can notch them with scissors and record that on your notes if you want.

 

[Pioneer]

I apologize if it sounds like I am shilling for Stearman Press, I really am not intending to do that. I use the Jobo tanks quite a bit as well but it is not as easy to keep track of where each sheet is on the 2509n reel. Perhaps super gluing a small knob or tab on the top of one side of the reel would help to tell which sheet was on which side. I'm not even sure how to do it at all if you are using an Expert Tank.

 

[Bob S]

I apologize if it sounds like I am shilling for Stearman Press, I really am not intending to do that. I use the Jobo tanks quite a bit as well but it is not as easy to keep track of where each sheet is on the 2509n reel. Perhaps super gluing a small knob or tab on the top of one side of the reel would help to tell which sheet was on which side. I'm not even sure how to do it at all if you are using an Expert Tank.

That’s why notching or using friskits on each side of each holder is easier. It also lets you know at any later time which side of which holder a sheet came from. And with no mental gymnastics.

 

[Ari]

I bought some mini files at the hardware store, they came in 5-6 different profiles: flat, round, triangle, square, etc etc.
Using three of them, and adapting the Roman numeral system, I cut notches in all my 4x5 and 8x10 holders.
So for example, one circle is 1; two circles is 2; one triangle is 5, and one circle before one triangle is 4. And so on.
You file inside the fold-up flap, the part of the flap that's closest to the film.

 

[JWMster]

Pioneer: As always... on the cusp of a great idea. Thanks! With old holders already kind of carved up, this may be the way to go. With "new" or uncarved up... let the filing begin. That said, seems trays or Stearman Press solutions offer a different approach and keeping track might be easier. Reason to do this aside from the notes on shots is for the film/developer testing I've got to do in order to adapt with my lens shutters, meter, film and developer. Just a LOT more to keep track of and debug. But those 2509 reels... great as they are, don't even have a color difference between to make this easier. Odd. So the older holders I've got for now push for an alternative solution.... not quite as easy as the others. Snipping the film is one, but that kind of slows down the loading process. Rotating the load of the reels will help... but the modifying the flap with files solution has a lot of merit. Arggggh!

 

[JWMster]

FWIW, two other articles on this: https://www.jbhphoto.com/articles/film-holder-numbering/ and http://www.doerzmanphoto.com/film_holders.html
I've numbered my Fidelity Elite holders. That was easy. Working with plastic is something I know. Ah... but I'm a bit intimidated by the wood holders. Will give it some study. FWIW, I found the Binary System math of the coding used in "Way Beyond Monochrome" a bit beyond needs and decided to use a Roman Numeral system as it's pretty clean, and simple.
Turns out many have been down this road before too. Fact is used holders seem to be numbered in someone else's system... and the problem is their system isn't likely to integrate with your own. (or my own in this case).

 

[ic-racer]

Unless I'm testing something I have little interest in post-hoc exposure information. Life is too short. Just about every 4x5 sheet is f22 and N development. If there is a special project or outlier usually those film holders will be set aside for the special treatment or analysis.

 

[Vaughn]

One can mark the holders in a different way so that one can ignore the old inherited system. Such as instead of notches on the flap, one can drill very small holes in the rails that hold the long sides of the film down in the holder. They'll work just like the flap notches. Figure out your own code (different size holes, grouped, different sides of the holder, etc). I have a couple used holders that came that way.

I often print with the rebate as part of the image, so I prefer no code system of this type. Each holder has a number w/ an A and B side...each exposure written down in my notes...and I draw a quick line sketch of the image in the notes. I use Jobo Drums 3005 and 3006 (4x5, 5x7, and 8x10). I make notes of which holders/side the film came from and which drum it goes into. Works out well for me.

 

[JWMster]

IC-Racer, my Rolleiflex friend.... yeah, gotta admit more than not with LF I'm shooting F/16 or F/22 or thereabouts by choice. Shutter is whatever, but generally slow enough that I wonder whether I'm getting the shot or not. Cuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh-llllllllll-iiiiiiiii-ccccckkkkk....purrrrrr. As I'm finding 4 film holders a good number these days for an outing and 8 shots in the tank,
it's not the toughest thing to keep track. But I understand your perspective. Mine is that even if it's not a test, learning about how to manipulate exposure at this relatively early stage of messing with 4X5 means I'm getting some pretty good info on each holder, and being able to back track is helpful.

That said....

I think being able to keep track of which holder is which will eventually argue for me to find a way to deal with the problem. Fortunately, I have a modeller's drill perfect for the job... if I decide to go there. Gave a bit of hard earned $'s to Hugo for a couple of Chamonix holders and they are so ....well... beautiful I almost hate to touch them. Hope to take them for their maiden cruise this weekend. And having just finished developing some shot from last weekend tonight (currently hanging to dry) I gotta say it's nice to just look down as you take them out of the tank and know exactly which negative is which.

Vaughn: Yes, I'm following your A/B numbering. Keeps it simpler. The Fidelity holders were numbered and notched so that A/B have the same identifier, but I add an additional for the B-side. If I'm lucky, Eleanor Rigby will be on the flipside.

I have to say I really thought this would take a lot longer to make progress with.... in the basics. That's happening faster than I thought. I'm still wrestling with the EV - Zone selection for shadows of various intensity on water ...'cause the literature seems a little less bothered by water and therefore quiet, and that's not helping the seaside photographer trying to get a handle on things. But that just means I have to get out there and shoot regularly to crank the experience. Hurt me. Yes, so now from here... I'm sure you guys will tell me "the rest is a lifetime or two of learning." So far? I'm loving it!

Can't wait to do some printing, too. BIG printing. Using D-23, I've read some folks write that printing big (16X 20) will show just how soft and crummy my D-23 is. I'm hoping that's misinformation! but I'm prepared for it to be the truth. We'll see, and we'll deal with it then.