I've Reached a New Low

dancqu · Jun 18, 2008

Are my prints any sharper? My most recent batch
of Beer's A working strength uses just one gram of
sodium sulfite per liter. It occurred to that very low
sulfite levels produce sharper images on film. Have
I left mushy grained prints behind with that very low
sulfite brew? Dan

Ian Grant · Jun 18, 2008

PhotoJim · Jun 18, 2008

I suppose if you viewed your prints under heavy, heavy magnification, they might appear to be sharper...

dancqu · Jun 19, 2008

Ian Grant said:
No

So the level of sulfite in the developer has "no"
affect on the sharpness of the image. Do varying
sulfite levels have any affect on the image? Dan

Ian Grant · Jun 19, 2008

No because the grain etc in the paper is already very fine and the level of sharpness is far more dependent on the negative, degree of enlargement, lens used etc.

Ian

Sparky · Jun 19, 2008

I had the impression that sulfite was a KNOWN offender in this regard (i.e. perceptol, microdol etc) - which are acutance developers - but they also dissolve silver grains...

Ian Grant · Jun 19, 2008

Perceptol and Microdol-X use sodium chloride as the silver solvent/restrainer. Never heard of either being called an acutance developer.

Ian

Dave Krueger · Jun 19, 2008

I'm pretty sure Barry Thornton calls Perceptol an accutance developer in Edge of Darkness.

In any case, it sounds like film and paper developers are getting confused in this thread. The original post was about paper developer, wasn't it?

PhotoJim · Jun 19, 2008

Sharpness is essentially a non-issue at the print level. It isn't an issue at the negative level, either, if you're only making contact prints or small enlargements.

Now, when you enlarge a 35mm 24x36 negative to large print sizes, it is an issue - a big one.

Sparky · Jun 19, 2008

He was actually talking about a film developer -and that the result is on the print - if I'm not mistaken. But I was simply talking about sulfite being a dissolver of grain - which may or may not be true (can't remember at the moment - but it was my impression). If perceptol isn't an acutance developer - well, I really don't know what is (we're talking about high dilutions). Doesn't microdol have the same basic active ingredients..? I thought so.

Dave Krueger · Jun 20, 2008

The opening post was about Beers which is a paper developer.

Perceptol, as discussed by Barry Thornton becomes an accutance developer at 1:3 dilution which apparently brings the sulfite concentration down to some magical level at which it supposedly no longer acts as a solvent. Just for the record, I tried it because of that recommendation and did not see the effect that he was referring to, but my testing was very limited and hardly conclusive of anything. I could find the quote out of his book, but not tonight. Too tired.

Sparky · Jun 20, 2008

right. that makes sense to me - well at least the high dilution part. I didn't know there was any relationship with sulfite concentration. I assumed they were independent of eachother - that you could have somewhat mushy grain but still have high acutance. I've used high dilution perceptol for years and years and years and was always very pleased with the effects. I think I was using a much higher dilution that 1+3 though. It makes for hellishly long dev times - but the result is well worth it!

dancqu · Jun 20, 2008

Dave Krueger said:
The opening post was about Beers which is a paper developer.

Minus the bromide it is a film developer of the Beutler type.
Comparatively a little low on sulfite and carbonate. Dan

Dave Krueger · Jun 20, 2008

dancqu said:
Dave Krueger said:

The opening post was about Beers which is a paper developer.

Click to expand...

Minus the bromide it is a film developer of the Beutler type.
Comparatively a little low on sulfite and carbonate. Dan

My apologies. I'm easily confused.

dancqu · Jun 21, 2008

Dave Krueger said:
My apologies. I'm easily confused.

Not at all confused. Beer's A, Ansco 120 and
likely a few other Paper developers along with
Beutler's, FX-1, Mason's and likely a few other
Film developers are all carbonated metol,
sulfite, developers. Dan

Sparky · Jun 21, 2008

Dave Krueger said:
The opening post was about Beers which is a paper developer.

Just wanted to clarify here. Beers maybe a paper dev but that doesn't mean one can't use it on film. It wasn't clear to me whether the OP was using for paper or film. HOWEVER there seemed to be very little doubt he was talking about film based on this quote:

"It occurred to that very low sulfite levels produce sharper images ON FILM. Have I left mushy grained prints behind with that very low
sulfite brew?"

I take his suggesting the sulfite levels producing sharper images 'on film' to mean that it's the FILM that was unsharp. I doubt one would ever have that problem with paper for reasons others have brought up.

dancqu · Jun 21, 2008

I Assumed.

Sparky said:
Beers maybe a paper dev but that doesn't mean one
can't use it on film. It wasn't clear to me whether the
OP was using for paper or film.

"It occurred to that very low sulfite levels produce sharper
images ON FILM. Have I left mushy grained prints behind
with that very low sulfite brew?"

I take his suggesting the sulfite levels producing sharper
images 'on film' to mean that it's the FILM that was unsharp.
I doubt one would ever have that problem with paper for
reasons others have brought up.

Yes Beer's is a print developer which when used very
dilute is of the Beutler's type but lower in sulfite and
carbonate. I was speaking of a very low sulfite
Beer's used very dilute as a Print developer
and the Prints' resulting grain.

The Beer's components ratios are 1:3:3, metol, sulfite,
carbonate. Multiply by 8 for a full liter of stock strength.
Add a small amount of bromide if the Paper tends to fog.
Ansco 120 is a same and Selectol Soft a similar developer.

The altered brew has component ratios of 1:1:4. I upped
the carbonate in order to speed the development
of Emaks paper. So far inconclusive although
1 part carbonate won't do at all. Dan

I've Reached a New Low

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