Isolationism (online equipment sales)

Ian Grant · Jul 4, 2006

This is an international forum, and it's excellent.

However there does seem to be the odd occasional isolationism and disregard for the rest of the world by a small number of US members. They aren't the norm

Ill elaborate, I post looking for an enlarger lens, I get offered one, and as soon as the person realizes Im not in the US the offer is dropped, & emails are not answered. The same happens on Ebay, despite the fact that UPS actually have their own delivery service in many European countries and also on other continents. Paypal and credit card systems are now international.

I should add that I buy regularly from the US, via this site & Ebay and its only a small minority who have blinkers on trading overseas.

Ian

roteague · Jul 4, 2006

I understand how frustrated you must feel Ian. Believe it or not, I actually run into the same thing - sellers in the lower 48 states not wanting to ship to Hawaii, even though the postal rate is the same.

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 4, 2006

We've had a few threads on this topic, mostly in relation to eBay, but also the APUG classifieds.

Usually it's a matter of convenience, not wanting to deal with the paperwork requirements of customs, going to a post office rather than using online shipping (and if you do use online shipping, having to hand the package directly to the carrier), handling international payments, and such. Some worry about the lack of recourse with international sales.

In spite of all these issues, I still buy and sell internationally. The only problem I've had has been with a sale that is still pending for over a month, because the French buyer can't seem to figure out how to set up a PayPal account, despite having been very insistent on using PayPal. Well, I haven't lost anything other than time at this point, but it is a nuisance.

Ole · Jul 4, 2006

Oddly enough, I have found isolationism to be more of an "insular" problem...

Short summary of my ebay experiences: Many US sellers who list "US only" are willing to ship to Norway. Most German sellers who list "Germany only" are very happy to ship to Norway. Very few UK sellers who list "UK only" are willing to even consider shipping anywhere else...

Troy Hamon · Jul 4, 2006

Getting people to ship to Alaska can be a problem, but the usual problem is that people don't do any research, quote a lower than cost price based on their lower-48 expectations, then are shocked at the shipping cost. But there are still lots of places out there that only ship to the continental US, and it doesn't seem to matter how much time you spend explaining that there are good shipping options to Seward's Folly, they stick with their shipping contract which is only to the 48 contiguous states...

Usually if I need anything bad enough, I can get it worked out somehow. What I find really frustrating are all the auctions that are for local pickup only. Not because I blame them...I just wish some of them were in my area for local pickup...

donbga · Jul 4, 2006

Ian Grant said:
This is an international forum, and it's excellent.

However there does seem to be the odd occasional isolationism and disregard for the rest of the world by a small number of US members. They aren't the norm

Ill elaborate, I post looking for an enlarger lens, I get offered one, and as soon as the person realizes Im not in the US the offer is dropped, & emails are not answered. The same happens on Ebay, despite the fact that UPS actually have their own delivery service in many European countries and also on other continents. Paypal and credit card systems are now international.

I should add that I buy regularly from the US, via this site & Ebay and its only a small minority who have blinkers on trading overseas.

Ian

As David very politely points out, international shipping and payments can be a pain in the ass, especially if the expected earnings of the sale are small. For the items I sell I would rather not make an international sale, though I won't turn one down either.

wilsonneal · Jul 4, 2006

Speaking as someone who posted an ad with "US Sales only" in it, allow me to say the only reason I am reluctant to sell internationally is that I am ignorant to the process. It's just easier to not deal with it. Similarly, if I see someone selling something either on APUG or eBay, from another country I am reluctant to deal with the perceived hassle. Note, I said perceived, because it is just my perception and my own ignorance as to what's involved.

What are the steps that one has to go through to sell something from the US to the UK, for example? Does it change with declared value? What about the reverse? Interested in hearing people's experiences with the nuts and bolts of the transaction.

Neal

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 4, 2006

The easiest way to sell an item from the US to another country is to accept PayPal and ship using USPS by whichever service offers the best rate in relation to the size of the item. If you use online shipping ("Click-n-ship"), you can do all the customs forms online and get a free pickup or drop it off at a post office, but you do have to hand the package directly to a postal worker.

For some destinations, PayPal may not be an option. For an item of significant value with another party who seems trustworthy, it may make sense to do a wire transfer. Call your bank to find out how to do it and what the fees are for your bank, and be sure the purchaser is willing to pay the fees on both ends. Usually you need the name of the bank, the ABA routing number, the SWIFT number (yeah, those same guys the CIA spies on), and your account number. The same goes in the other direction, but if you're the purchaser, the fees are up to you.

Some countries may not have trustworthy postal services, so you may need to use a courier service like DHL. This can be expensive, but it might be worth it in relation to the price of the item. I paid $150 once for DHL service for a good deal on a Tech V 6x9 camera from Slovenia--the price of the camera being good enough to justify the high shipping cost. Again, you have to work it out with the person on the other end.

UPS can sometimes be a problem with international sales, as they may charge a customs brokerage fee and hold up the shipment.

Ian Grant · Jul 4, 2006

Don & Neal etc

Actually I've it found virtually no differance buying and selling across countries, to buying in the UK. Sure you need to fill out a Customs declaration this is very easy, helps if seller and buyer agree a value, might not be the sale price

Below a certain value customs & excise arent interested anyway, even when the item is high value it can still be worth while as exchange rates work in our favour here in the UK, but import duty and taxes can still add 21.5%

Should add that it is us buyers who are responsible for any import duties, and once the seller has been paid they have no mre liabilities.

Can't comment about selling to the States as I've given items for free and made no charge . . . .

Ian

DBP · Jul 4, 2006

roteague said:
I understand how frustrated you must feel Ian. Believe it or not, I actually run into the same thing - sellers in the lower 48 states not wanting to ship to Hawaii, even though the postal rate is the same.

The Alaskan chamber of commerce did a study back in the 80s of why people didn't visit Alaska more. They found that 40% thought it required a passport. The same may be true for Hawaii.

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 4, 2006

DBP said:
The Alaskan chamber of commerce did a study back in the 80s of why people didn't visit Alaska more. They found that 40% thought it required a passport. The same may be true for Hawaii.

Don't get me started on this one. My wife had to set up a medical appointment while we're on vacation in Hawai'i and needed a referral from her doctor in New York. The inane staff member thought it was an international call.

I've been asked if I could bring back money or stamps from Hawai'i.

donbga · Jul 4, 2006

DBP said:
The Alaskan chamber of commerce did a study back in the 80s of why people didn't visit Alaska more. They found that 40% thought it required a passport. The same may be true for Hawaii.

This reminds me of when the Summer Olmypics was hosted in Atlanta. When people from New Mexico called to Atlanta to purchase tickets the idiots answering the phones at the sales office thought they were calling from another country.

donbga · Jul 4, 2006

Ian Grant said:
Don & Neal etc

Actually I've it found virtually no differance buying and selling across countries, to buying in the UK. Sure you need to fill out a Customs declaration this is very easy, helps if seller and buyer agree a value, might not be the sale price

Below a certain value customs & excise arent interested anyway, even when the item is high value it can still be worth while as exchange rates work in our favour here in the UK, but import duty and taxes can still add 21.5%

Should add that it is us buyers who are responsible for any import duties, and once the seller has been paid they have no mre liabilities.

Can't comment about selling to the States as I've given items for free and made no charge . . . .

Ian

My first international sale was to a fellow in the Bahamas. I sold a brand new set of 5x7 plate holders and it took customs eight weeks to clear the package. I made a whopping $10 profit. Of course I had my money before shipping but never the less I was concerned that the package wouldn't be delivered.

If I sold stuff for a living I might be reticent to make international sales, especially if the profit margins were low.

Loose Gravel · Jul 4, 2006

I have a friend in Albuquerque New Mexico that several times for mail orders from US companies has been referred to international sales. They even have zip codes down there.

Eric Leppanen · Jul 4, 2006

Shipping internationally certainly requires an initial learning curve. However, in my opinion it is decidedly worth going through it.

While it occasionally entails some customs hassle, shipping worldwide clearly results in more bidders and higher prices for your items. So far I have had successful Ebay sales to buyers in Andorra, Australia, Canada, Hungary and the U.K., with minimal hassle associated with customs. I accept payment either via PayPal or bank wire transfer, which seems to work for most folks (few international folks have PayPal so most pay via wire). I ship primarily via U.S. Post Office Global Express Mail (less expensive for the buyers, as there is no customs brokerage fee) but will ship via private courier when appropriate. Working with the buyer to ensure that the item is labeled and shipped in a way conducive to the customs process can save a lot of time and hassle.

In setting up my procedures I found threads like these helpful:

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=400051350&tstart=0&mod=1127699176613
http://answercenter.ebay.com/thread.jspa?forumID=12&threadID=810045206
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=410274503&tstart=0&mod=1150942684982
http://www.isdntek.com/postalcustoms.htm

Area51Resident · Jul 4, 2006

As an avid eBay browser/shopper in Canada I've purchased from US sellers several times. As far as I know all goods leaving the US have to include an export declaration form. For small packages, sent by USPS, it is a 2x3 inch green sticker where the shipper writes the type of goods, value and signs it. Takes a few seconds to complete and a trip to the Post Office. The biggest issue for me is in how it is shipped. Shipping US to Canada by USPS results in the lowest cost in customs fees (usually $5, UPS charges can start at $40 plus a percentage of the item value). I've only had one package (out of 20+) with a long delay, everything else has been without issue.

FWIW shipping from Canada to another country works the same. Description of goods, value and signature, on the correct form and attached to the package and away it goes.

On the lighter side. I get a kick out of the listings that state emphatically "no international shipping" but list US and Canada as countries they will ship to. Canada is considered "International" by UPS, FedEx and USPS - it is a separate country. Most Canadians I have meet do think that Canada is a separate country. I can't same the same for many Americans, even those that live right at the border.

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 4, 2006

If the package is small, like a filter, you can get by with the simple 2x3" green sticker. A heavier package (I don't recall offhand what the break point is, but you can find it on www.usps.com), like a camera, requires a more detailed white customs form.

jd callow · Jul 4, 2006

More than 4 pounds or a package size with a length plus circumference of greater than 36" requires the long form.

I ship ww and buy ww, it is a bit more work, but I don't mind.

pandino · Jul 5, 2006

I'm a U.S. resident that quit selling internationally for the very reasons David has mentioned. When I have shipped internationally, it required a trip to the Post/FedEx Office and filling out of paperwork. I make occasional exceptions, but for most items it's too much of an inconvenience. I've nothing against buyers outside the U.S., it's just a hassle to ship.

Sparky · Jul 5, 2006

Ian Grant said:
However there does seem to be the odd occasional isolationism and disregard for the rest of the world by a small number of US members. They aren't the norm

What - ? Isolationist sentiments coming from the people who belong to the nation which came up with the song "We Are the World"??? You MUST be joking.

Sparky · Jul 5, 2006

But seriously - (and, more constructively) I've sold stuff on ebay - and frequently (always maybe) make it a point to offer it internationally. For the following reasons;

1. Your item will probably fetch a significantly higher price - since a lot of the items more popular in the US are hard to get for a foreign national.

2. The 'paperwork' takes about 1.5 minutes to fill out. It's really nothing. You write an adress and the contents and check a few boxes. I really don't see what the fuss is.

I suspect it's just 'fear of the unknown' that people are avoiding. Am I wrong?

roteague · Jul 5, 2006

As an example of what I was saying before, there is currently an add in the Classified which states "shipping to the lower 48" even though the item will easily fit a fixed rate box, which costs the same to ship to Hawaii that it would cost to send to Florida.

gordrob · Jul 5, 2006

It's interesting that receiving a pacel from England by Royal Mail to Canada took less than a week while a package from the US can take up to two weeks or more. However the Royal Mail cost is quite high compared to USPS. Canada Customs reduced the number of international clearing centers a couple of years ago and that has had an impact on international deliveriesto Canada. The biggest problem with the international shipments is that most sellers don't want to take the extra effort to figure out what it takes (very little as a matter of fact) to ship outside their country. What I get a kick out of is buyers asking a seller online to send the purchase as a gift so there is no tax involved at the receivers end. Don't they ever think that these sites are monitored to catch this - then it gets very expensive.

Gord

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 5, 2006

Royal Mail does get very expensive to the US. I learned the hard way when I bought a Paterson print roller system with a water bath--kind of a cheap version of a Jobo for prints. Shipping was as much as the cost of the item. Now I only buy small items from the UK that aren't expensive to ship, or I'm more careful to be sure the shipping costs are justified.

Andy K · Jul 5, 2006

As an aside, Royal Mail are going to change the way they price postage on packages. At the moment the postage cost is related to the weight of the parcel. The new method will relate the cost to the physical size of the parcel. For example it will cost less to send a heavy SLR camera packed in a smallish box than it will cost to send a two foot square boxed print.

Isolationism (online equipment sales)

Ian Grant

roteague

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Ole

Moderator

Troy Hamon

donbga

wilsonneal

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Ian Grant

DBP

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

donbga

donbga

Loose Gravel

Eric Leppanen

Area51Resident

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

jd callow

Moderator

pandino

Sparky

Sparky

roteague

gordrob

David A. Goldfarb

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Andy K

Isolationism (online equipment sales)

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Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency