Isn't Sepia toner supposed to stink?

Ricus.stormfire · Apr 25, 2012

Hi all

I have pondered this ever since I started using Rollei's Sepia Toner (RST). The only other sepia toner I have used before was Kodak's Sepia toner, and that honked like rotten eggs.

Now why does the Rollei not stink, not even a bit. Odorless Sodium Sulfide Toner? or is there something I am missing here. I must admit, I am happy not to have the normal stink (esp. now with an easy-to-nauseate, pregnant wife) associated with Sepia toning.

For those that might ask, this is not a direct toner as it has a bleach stage.

Thanks in advance

trotkiller · Apr 25, 2012

Thiourea/Thiocarbamide based sepia toners are odor-free, but I thought the Rollei was a smelly, Sodium Sulfide based toner.

Ricus.stormfire · Apr 25, 2012

trotkiller said:
Thiourea/Thiocarbamide based sepia toners are odor-free, but I thought the Rollei was a smelly, Sodium Sulfide based toner.

that's what I thought too....could it be that RST is Thiourea based and not Sodium Sulfide based? I wonder?

trotkiller · Apr 25, 2012

Thiourea based toners are 3 part toners. Part A is the standard bleach. Part B and C are Thiourea and the activator. You mix B+C before you use it as the mixed toner solution doesn't keep.

Ricus.stormfire · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery solved

Ok after a rather fruitless attempt to Google my question, I Googled "Rollei Sepia Toner" and low and behold I got a link to this: http://www.mahn.net/SIDown.htm , there under Laborpartner's chems (Formulation is same as Rollei's for some chemicals) I found the "ingredients" for Part B, one quick Google translate later, and TADA, I see it contains Thiocarbamide!

So Rollei Sepia Toner IS not Sodium Sulfide based but an odorless Thiocarbamide toner.

Ricus.stormfire · Apr 25, 2012

OK, seems this is not solved yet....3 part toner hmmm? RST only has a part A & part B. The plot thickens...

kevs · Apr 26, 2012

Ricus.stormfire said:
OK, seems this is not solved yet....3 part toner hmmm? RST only has a part A & part B. The plot thickens...

Most of the thiocarbamide toners I've used are two-part ones; the three part ones are supposed to adjust the colour when you mix sodium hydroxide with the thiocarb to adjust the pH. See Ilford's page at http://www.ilfordphoto.com/aboutus/page.asp?n=130

Thiocarbamide / thiourea is probably carcinogenic, so try not to inhale it too deeply!

Cheers,
kevs.

Old-N-Feeble · Apr 26, 2012

It's been a VERY long time but... I seem to remember that some folks don't smell the rotten-egg odor of sepia toner.

pentaxuser · Apr 26, 2012

I suspect there is a major prize that may be never won for the inventor of the first Sulphide toner that doesn't smell. I think the point is that inventing a smell free sulphide toner is probably the chemical equivalent of Scottie's comment in Startrek about not being able to change the law of physics

pentaxuser

Mainecoonmaniac · Apr 26, 2012

The good part is that if you rip one in the darkroom ,you can blame the toner.

Ricus.stormfire · Apr 27, 2012

Thank you all for the comments.

I never knew that there are non-variable Thiocarbamide toners, So I think it is correct to say that Rollei Sepia Toner is one of those. Pity, really, I wouldn't mind a variable version though, but in South Africa the pickings can be very slim for film/darkroom chemistry.

I have to wonder though which is better -archival quality wise- Normal smelly Sodium Sulphide or Thiocarbamide toners. As far as I understand, both, convert the image to silver sulphide, so there should be no difference then, right?

kevs · Apr 30, 2012

Ricus.stormfire said:
Thank you all for the comments.

I never knew that there are non-variable Thiocarbamide toners, So I think it is correct to say that Rollei Sepia Toner is one of those. Pity, really, I wouldn't mind a variable version though, but in South Africa the pickings can be very slim for film/darkroom chemistry.

I have to wonder though which is better -archival quality wise- Normal smelly Sodium Sulphide or Thiocarbamide toners. As far as I understand, both, convert the image to silver sulphide, so there should be no difference then, right?

You're right - where archival qualities are concerned they're the same, they both convert silver to silver sulphide; aesthetically, they're totally different.

Cheers,
kevs

pentaxuser · May 1, 2012

kevs said:
aesthetically, they're totally different.

Cheers,
kevs

Could you amplify this Kev? Are you for instance saying that the "look" of a suphide toned print cannot be replicated with thiocarbimide and if so what is it that distinguishes a sulphide toned print from a thiocarbimide?

I haven't tried either so this is a genuine inquiry to gather info and not a covert challenge to you statement

Thanks

pentaxuser

kevs · May 1, 2012

pentaxuser said:
Could you amplify this Kev? Are you for instance saying that the "look" of a suphide toned print cannot be replicated with thiocarbimide and if so what is it that distinguishes a sulphide toned print from a thiocarbimide?

I haven't tried either so this is a genuine inquiry to gather info and not a covert challenge to you statement

Thanks

pentaxuser

No worries Pentaxuser; I've found that they tone differently; thiocarbamide seems to affect all the tones in a print, where sulphide seems to act more proportionally between light and dark tones. I also find that sulphide gives a less pronounced tone than thiocarbamide, though the result obviously depends upon the paper type and the amount of time spent in the bleach.

This doesn't really surprise me though; sodium sulphide and thiocarbamide are totally different chemicals and I don't think we should expect them to act the same way. I must admit a preference for Tetenal Sulphide; although I'm not sure why, I've never really liked the results I've had from thiocarbamide toners. YMMV.

Cheers,
kevs.

Bob Carnie · May 2, 2012

I used the Kodak sepia toner for years , until they changed it . Now I am using scratch mix with sodium sulphide as the second bath. I like the flexibility dilution and time can give me with different papers.

I am such a miserable bastard that when I am in a bad mood and I want to piss off the people around me I just mix a monster tray of toner , and do not turn on the ventilation system. This smelly mix is just what the doctor ordered to cheer me up on those special days.

John Shriver · May 2, 2012

The level of stink with the Kodak Sepia Toner depended on whether you washed your print properly. A little fix left on the print, and you can be chased out of the house by toxic levels of hydrogen sulfide. (I know all too well.)

Isn't Sepia toner supposed to stink?

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