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Is Xtol reliable?

Brad,
obviously this is not anything about you, but I think more than a few of us are "exhausted" from this so called problem that has hung around for so long.
 
david b said:
Brad,
obviously this is not anything about you, but I think more than a few of us are "exhausted" from this so called problem that has hung around for so long.
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Like the Mythical Hasselblad Mirror Slap Problem, which is for the most part promulgated by TLR folks who cannot afford a Hasselblad [Note to flamers: as stated that statement excludes Rollei TLR users]. For proof see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKcbyh2CrA

And yet like the XTOL sudden death postings continuely come back to haunt us.

Steve
 
Do something right a thousand time, they will take it for granted, do something wrong once, you will pay a thousand times. Especially if your Kodak.
 
david b said:
It is truly amazing how something so long ago can still come up.

The problem that (rarely) occurred had to do with 1 liter bags that have long been killed.

Follow the instructions on the bag and use distilled water and you will be fine
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I read extensively on the topic a few years ago (ca. 2005). The 1-liter bags were indeed discontinued and are widely blamed for some XTOL problems; however, some people reported problems even with the 5-liter bags. (Sorry, I didn't keep references.) Several other factors have been cited as contributing to XTOL issues:

  • Contaminants in the water, particularly metals and dissolved oxygen.
  • Storage in partially-full or air-permeable bottles.
  • Use at too-high dilutions (too little stock XTOL per unit of film). IIRC, for a 36-exposure roll of 35mm film, you need ~100ml of stock XTOL to develop a roll, so going beyond 1+1 dilution is risky unless you use significantly more developer than is required to cover the reels. This effect is rumored to be greater for some films, such as T-Max 100, than for others.
  • XTOL usually doesn't discolor with age or when it goes bad, so it can be hard to tell when you're taking a risk.

Some people dismiss these issues, when they cause problems, as "user error," but IMHO they should be emphasized for new users so that those people don't commit the errors. Also, there's a logical fallacy I see frequently in XTOL fans' posts: They say "I've used it for x years without problems, therefore it has no problems." Well, a product (any product) can have problems only under certain conditions, or only very rarely. The fact that one person hasn't seen problems doesn't mean anything. Take another type of problem in another product to see my point: Any time there's a food poisoning scare (mad cow disease, E. coli in lettuce, etc.), millions of people eat the products as they're being recalled and don't fall ill. Just a few people become ill. Few people would accept the reasoning "well, I ate some lettuce just yesterday, so there's no problem with E. coli in the lettuce!"
 
Ian Grant said:
Those comments are true for any Powder developer, like ID-11, D76, Microdol-X, Perceptol etc.
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This is often forgotten in the XTOL sudden death discussions.

Thank you.

Steve
 
fotch said:
Do something right a thousand time, they will take it for granted, do something wrong once, you will pay a thousand times. Especially if your Kodak.
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And Ilford and Fuji seem to get a pass every time.

Steve
 
We are not talking about life or death situations here.

If you fear a developer because of a now rare occurrence, then don't use it. There are plenty of others still out there, or you can even make your own xtol like developer.

I am just sick and tired of people trolling through photo.net, seeing a thread where one guy f*cked up his prize winning shot because he mixed xtol wrong or stored it wrong, and then forty more people chime in with useless babble about how they won't use it because of something that might or might not even happen.

If you cannot follow the directions on the bag and you are unwilling to use distilled water (which is not on the bag but it is in every frickin' thread about the ancient xtol failure), then get another developer. Find some pre-made liquid that does not require storage or any kind of mixing. Something like rodinal.

I can only speak from my experience with xtol. I've never had a problem. I mix it with distilled water. I stored it in 1 liter chemical bottles. I use it at 1+1 but have used it at 1+2 with zero problems. It is fantastic with just about any film I have tried and currently love it with TMY2.
 
I think your sentiment is right David, I have yet to hear of anyone who actually suffered from the almost mythical Xtol sudden death Syndrome.

Ian
 
I just bought my first Xtol along with some collapsable bottles, and from reading this thread there may be some doubt about the protection provided by collapsable bottles. Does anyone have a feeling about that type of bottle being a real problem? Would it help any to store the bottles submerged in a 5 gal. bucket of water to help keep oxygen out?

Dave
 
Collapsible bottles can be a problem. I had problems with one bottle with developer, moved the developer to another bottle and replace the first. I will probably start the wine bottle approach soon.

Steve
 
Dave,
I would suggest getting those brown chemical bottles that can be purchased in any decent camera shop. Buy them in the 1 liter size and fill them to the very top. Storing the bottles in buckets of water is a little on the extreme side.
 
david b said:
Dave,
I would suggest getting those brown chemical bottles that can be purchased in any decent camera shop. Buy them in the 1 liter size and fill them to the very top. Storing the bottles in buckets of water is a little on the extreme side.
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These are the types of bottles I have used to store Xtol, and Dektol in. I Decant the Xtol 5 ltrs into smaller 1 ltr bottles and have had on the shelf for 6 months with no problems.
 
The color of the glass jug really doesn't matter does it as long as they are stored in total darkness? (In a cabinet in a darkened basement)
 

Well, I used collapsible bottles for years with D76 and 2 or 3 month storage was not a problem. I do recall that longer times the D76 was changed color so I would throw it out. Never used XTOL so cannot report.

I now have changed and will use 20 250ML amber glass bottles with a bit of plastic wrap to seal, and filled to the brim for XTOL (I plan to try this developer) and 16 for D76. From what I have been able to find, 6 month storage should not be a problem with either.

I have not actually tried the method as I am between darkrooms.

Disclaimer: I am about to sell my used collapsible bottles in the classifieds and I also have an excess of amber bottles that I sell.
 


I've used the collapsible bottles without incident. Mind you, I can go through the x-tol pretty quickly, so if some air is getting in, then I'm using it up faster than it can exhaust the developer.

Oh.. and I've mixed it with tap water... without incident as well.

I guess I just like to live on the edge...
 
Collapsible bottles hold the seal well when they are in the store. They still hold the seal when one gets them home. But as soon as you put in any chemical that is sensitive to oxidation, the seal starts to very slowly leak.

Can someone 'splain it to me?

Steve
 

Depends on what you mean by "leak."

If you mean that a container that had no open headspace later has open headspace, the issue may have nothing to do with the seal. It could just be outgassing of the solution.

If you're seeing actual oxidation, I got nothing.
 

When collapsed so that all the air possible has been forced out, in the closet or on the shelf the container slowly expands with air.

Steve
 
Sirius Glass said:
When collapsed so that all the air possible has been forced out, in the closet or on the shelf the container slowly expands with air.

Steve
Click to expand...

I was given one and it seemed to be unused. Mine did the same, but in a couple of hours! Tossed it...
 
Just one more data point - I've never had a failure, but I've only used XTOL for a few years. I mix with distilled water and store in full brown reagent bottles in the dark. And I never use any developer more than 6 months after it was mixed.
 
I have been using Xtol for two years now at 1+1 dilution with no failure yet(knock on wood).
 
Ever notice that XTOL Sudden Death failures never occur to you or someone you know? The failures after Kodak fixed its problems are apocryphal or in the urban legend portion of the internet. Or is that the same thing?

Steve
 
I never had problems with XTOL even with the small 1 Liter packs!
When I know I have much developing cicles for a year or so I use it even replinished and the longest time without total change was 1 1/2 year, the same basic soup for so long is very economic!
But I work totaly clean in my lab, all fix parts are only used with Fix and all parts re developer are only used with developer and between them is always a stop also!

Cheers Armin
 
If you go back, for example, and look at usenet threads from the first few years after Xtol came out, there were reports from experienced users of Xtol sudden death from the 5 liter packets, with the developer mixed with distilled water, properly stored, and using at least 100ml stock per roll of film. If I remember rightly, John Douglas, Richard Knoppow, and John Hicks, among others, had failures. Ryuji Suzuki took it seriously enough to try and solve the problem with a similar developer. I used to argue with J. Douglas all the time. He thought that no one should use it, whereas I liked it. Nonetheless, there was too much anecdotal evidence back then to simply dismiss the failures as a user mistake.

That said, I haven't heard about failures for quite a long time, and so I conclude that if there really was an issue, then it's been fixed.
 
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