Is this under-agitation?

250swb · Oct 26, 2022

510 Pyro at 1+100 is a very reliable concoction and the only time I've found it to give problems with unevenness is at higher dilutions like 1+300. So I think maybe it's the agitation. Usually you'd think the stripes or surge bands caused by uneven development would be across the film, especially with 35mm and in relation to the sprocket holes. But with 120 maybe the extra width of the film is allowing ripples lengthwise as the tank is inverted? I never invert the tank with 510 Pyro and just use the twiddle stick, an initial 30 seconds then 10 seconds on the minute unless I'm doing a semi-stand development. As a compensating developer gentle agitation is most appropriate as you need to give it enough time to exhaust in the highlights between agitations, so maybe you've done too much agitation for too long and it's not having time to work evenly across the negative?

john_s · Oct 26, 2022

NB23 said:
Ok good.

A thing to know is that the first minute is the most important. Any error during the first minute will get carried all over the whole process.

It's only recently that I've read this advice in a few different places and it seems to be very important. Even if I'm doing minimal agitation with a long development time I do continuous fairly vigorous agitation for the first couple of minutes.

For the OP, if he/she hadn't experienced this problem also with D76(1+1) I would have suggested using twice the quantity of diluted 510-Pyro to maybe minimize oxidation effect, but using enough D76(1+1) to cover a 120 roll film (not far short of 500mL) is plenty of developer and oxidation in that case would not be a problem. I think the advice to introduce some random rotation during/after each inversion is essential.

pentaxuser · Oct 26, 2022

Out of all this advice I wonder what bit or bits of the advice the OP has chosen to try?

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Oct 26, 2022

ediz7531 said:
I don’t pre-soak.

That could be the problem. Pre-soaking gets the film to accept the developer evenly.

George Collier · Oct 26, 2022

Don Cardwell also used to recommend rolling the tank on the counter (must be water tight, of course) a couple of times once in a while during development.
It does look like agitation to me and although I wouldn't have thought of this, the dilution / strength comment could make sense. 5:500 would be standard for me for one roll of 35mm in a 500 tank for pyro, but maybe you should up the strength and compensate with a shorter time to test the idea. Beautiful blue winter skies are the acid test for agitation. And over the years I've had surge problems at the edges with 120 film, more than one film and several developers. All stainless tanks and reels.

250swb · Oct 27, 2022

The Tech Sheet for 510 Pyro is here

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/files/pdf/pdf13083.pdf

and reading through it again a couple of things stand out in relation to things that have been mentioned or not yet mentioned. The first is that a pre-soak is not recommended because it can lead to uneven development, but the OP doesn't pre-soak so maybe don't bother trying. The other is viscosity and something NB23 said about the most important part of development being the first minute and any faults there don't tend to even out later on. 510 Pyro is a very thick syrup, and it can stay syrupy in the solution even after a good stir if you aren't careful, so I just wondered if the developer wasn't fully mixed?

Alex Benjamin · Oct 27, 2022

George Collier said:
Beautiful blue winter skies are the acid test for agitation.

I'd go further and say even skies are the acid test for development technique in general.

That quest is the main reason why Robert Adams, who likes to put large amount of sky in his photos, changed his development procedure, as discusses in this thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/robert-adams-film-development-technique.193269/

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 27, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
That could be the problem. Pre-soaking gets the film to accept the developer evenly.

Ilford recommends against a presoak with their films. To the OP, skip the inversions, and use the figure-8 method. It's a nice random way that I've been using forever. I find inversion method too vigorous. I've also been playing around with 510-Pyro for the past couple of months...

ediz7531 · Oct 27, 2022

250swb said:
510 Pyro at 1+100 is a very reliable concoction and the only time I've found it to give problems with unevenness is at higher dilutions like 1+300. So I think maybe it's the agitation. Usually you'd think the stripes or surge bands caused by uneven development would be across the film, especially with 35mm and in relation to the sprocket holes. But with 120 maybe the extra width of the film is allowing ripples lengthwise as the tank is inverted? I never invert the tank with 510 Pyro and just use the twiddle stick, an initial 30 seconds then 10 seconds on the minute unless I'm doing a semi-stand development. As a compensating developer gentle agitation is most appropriate as you need to give it enough time to exhaust in the highlights between agitations, so maybe you've done too much agitation for too long and it's not having time to work evenly across the negative?

Yeah, I'm still puzzled about the vertical vs horizontal stripes given how gravity flows. In any case, I do see a slight rotation while inverting being effective in breaking any laminar flow that may form.

pentaxuser said:
Out of all this advice I wonder what bit or bits of the advice the OP has chosen to try?

pentaxuser

I wished I could do controlled experiments, adding one new element at a time, but I did get to develop a roll of 35mm film shot on Tmax 400 (also with 510 Pyro). No bright skies unfortunately, but quite white clouds.
From the comments, a couple of things to try were a longer initial agitation + a small twist when inverting. I first agitated for 30 seconds and then for 10 seconds every minute. I added half of a full turn twist as I inverted. The picture attached, while an apples to oranges comparison, doesn't show any weird artifacts, so I find it encouraging. I'm hoping to try on a blue sky soon - we are going to Death Valley this coming week, so it shouldn't be too hard to find.

250swb said:
The Tech Sheet for 510 Pyro is here

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/files/pdf/pdf13083.pdf

and reading through it again a couple of things stand out in relation to things that have been mentioned or not yet mentioned. The first is that a pre-soak is not recommended because it can lead to uneven development, but the OP doesn't pre-soak so maybe don't bother trying. The other is viscosity and something NB23 said about the most important part of development being the first minute and any faults there don't tend to even out later on. 510 Pyro is a very thick syrup, and it can stay syrupy in the solution even after a good stir if you aren't careful, so I just wondered if the developer wasn't fully mixed?

One one of the first times I used 510 pyro I didn't mix properly, and the negative came underdeveloped as most of the syrup stayed at the bottom of the beaker. These days I stir extensively before pouring into the tank.

Andrew O'Neill said:
Ilford recommends against a presoak with their films. To the OP, skip the inversions, and use the figure-8 method. It's a nice random way that I've been using forever. I find inversion method too vigorous. I've also been playing around with 510-Pyro for the past couple of months...

I'm curious about the figure of 8 method. What is your agitation frequency with this method?

grain elevator · Oct 27, 2022

ediz7531 said:
Thank you. I think I've used this batch of fixer (TF-4) for about ~ 10 developments, so I wouldn't have guessed that it's too spent. I fixed for 5 minutes, for 30 seconds every minute. I could probably try to re-fix for another 5 minutes and report back.

While a development issues seems more likely, 5:30 seems short to me for Delta 400 and half-spent fixer. Have you established that the film visually clears in less than 2:15 even with half-spent fixer?

Sirius Glass · Oct 27, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Ilford recommends against a presoak with their films. To the OP, skip the inversions, and use the figure-8 method. It's a nice random way that I've been using forever. I find inversion method too vigorous. I've also been playing around with 510-Pyro for the past couple of months...

Agitation patterns can vary with the choice of film and developer. The method I used worked for all the developers and films which I used.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 27, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Agitation patterns can vary with the choice of film and developer. The method I used worked for all the developers and films which I used.

Me too.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 27, 2022

ediz7531 said:
Yeah, I'm still puzzled about the vertical vs horizontal stripes given how gravity flows. In any case, I do see a slight rotation while inverting being effective in breaking any laminar flow that may form.

I wished I could do controlled experiments, adding one new element at a time, but I did get to develop a roll of 35mm film shot on Tmax 400 (also with 510 Pyro). No bright skies unfortunately, but quite white clouds.
From the comments, a couple of things to try were a longer initial agitation + a small twist when inverting. I first agitated for 30 seconds and then for 10 seconds every minute. I added half of a full turn twist as I inverted. The picture attached, while an apples to oranges comparison, doesn't show any weird artifacts, so I find it encouraging. I'm hoping to try on a blue sky soon - we are going to Death Valley this coming week, so it shouldn't be too hard to find.

One one of the first times I used 510 pyro I didn't mix properly, and the negative came underdeveloped as most of the syrup stayed at the bottom of the beaker. These days I stir extensively before pouring into the tank.

I'm curious about the figure of 8 method. What is your agitation frequency with this method?

One figure-8 per second.

snusmumriken · Oct 27, 2022

pentaxuser said:
No it has nothing to do with Ilford's agitation regime. This has worked for me and thousands or maybe tens of thousands of others

The answer lies elsewhere

pentaxuser

But hang on, do you use 120 film?

pentaxuser · Oct 27, 2022

snusmumriken said:
But hang on, do you use 120 film?

Yes - regularly. However I have never used a staining developer so does any staining developer require a different agitation regime or is it only the OP's developer which is Pyro 510 that requires an agreed different agitation regime? If so, what should that regime be and how much "leeway" do you have if what you do varies from whatever that specific regime requires, assuming that out of the many respondents' posts we have a consensus on the exact regime to be used

I note that the OP has used D76 as well and still noticed the unevenness of which he complains. So have I used D76? No, but I was a regular user of ID11 and 120 film and never noticed a problem with the Ilford regime. So is ID11 close enough to D76 to count?

Ah but have I used D400 in 120? Frankly I am unsure but does that rule me out from seriously wondering aloud about the Ilford agitation being the likely cause?

I suppose the crucial question is: Have I added less to the process that will lead to the real cause by making a negative statement about the cause being the agitation regime than others who supply what works for them?

What tends to happen with threads looking for a solution is that in most cases we drill down to a cause too quickly and before we know where we are it is a question solely of getting the agitation regime exactly correct for the solution. In this case there is a groundswell towards the wrong agitation being the problem and the quest to get it absolutely right instead of trying first to examine if there is real evidence for it

So as I said is there a definite difference to the basics of the agitation regime for staining developers in general and is there a specific and long recognised way to agitate 510 Pyro

If there is can we reach a consensus on this? However we still have to recognise that somehow this proposed solution needs to be reconciled with the same problem in using D76

pentaxuser

250swb · Oct 28, 2022

I feel something or other in this discussion should have triggered something the OP could try but isn't currently doing. 510 Pyro is very simple to use if used simply, being a compensating developer it's almost like the less you do the better it works in allowing the oxidation to take place naturally. I suppose the only thing left to ask about regarding vertical streaks is the drying process, wetting agent or no wetting agent, chamois or drip dry, etc. ?

ediz7531 · Oct 28, 2022

250swb said:
I feel something or other in this discussion should have triggered something the OP could try but isn't currently doing. 510 Pyro is very simple to use if used simply, being a compensating developer it's almost like the less you do the better it works in allowing the oxidation to take place naturally. I suppose the only thing left to ask about regarding vertical streaks is the drying process, wetting agent or no wetting agent, chamois or drip dry, etc. ?

I use a drop of Edwal wetting agent with distilled water on the last rinse. Hang to dry, no squeegee or anything of that sort.

pentaxuser · Oct 28, 2022

ediz7531, here's a video by a presenter who has impressed me. It's on semi-stand 510 development and the Q&A/comments underneath the presentation are in my opinion helpful as well Of course you have to decide what is the "wheat" and what is the "chaff" and what is worth considering

I note that Andrew O'Neill has a short video on figure of eight agitation and on 510 Pyro so that's another two worth a look as well. Will these help you solve you problem? Frankly I don't know but all 3 will add to your knowledge of 510 and agitation

Here it is

pentaxuser

250swb · Oct 29, 2022

ediz7531 said:
I use a drop of Edwal wetting agent with distilled water on the last rinse. Hang to dry, no squeegee or anything of that sort.

That should work unless drying times are very short and not giving enough time for the water to drain and evaporate slowly and evenly.

Is this under-agitation?

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