Is this plagiarism or homage?

Brian C. Miller said:

Why bother obsessing with what someone on Flickr posts? Maybe the Flickr fellow looked at Hido's photographs, and did imitate the ones he liked. Big deal. Maybe all of them he thought up independently. Big deal. Is every photograph of a rose derivative or plagarized from the first photograph of a rose?

Less agony, more photography.

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This Flickr guy has 4-5 shots that were taken EXACTLY where Hido took his. Amazing coincidence if "all of them he thought up independently". Simply amazing.

When I was in high school a compulsory matter was disegno a mano libera, free-hand sketching with a pencil, the chiaroscuro stuff.
You obviously have to be born for the stuff or ten lives will not be enough to become decent. I think I would need twenty lives. Teachers were compassionate enough.

Anyway your task as a poor young man trying to draw was to copy some Piranesi tables about architectural details. The task and exercise here was to copy as well and as exactly as possible. Copying is a powerful way to learn technique. Personal style comes after.

I don't think there really is anything deeply wrong in what the photographer is doing, I only observe that:

- If he does it as an exercise in technique, this should better be openly declared;
- If he does it as a way to acquire some recognition, then he will just make a fool of himself because the other photographers published first and "exact imitators" only manage to make a fool of themselves.
- The most natural outcome in any case is that this photographer will learn from the copying exercise and he'll almost inevitably arrive to some personal way of seeing. Imitation will have been just a way to learn the technique one day.

rich815 said:

This Flickr guy has 4-5 shots that were taken EXACTLY where Hido took his. Amazing coincidence if "all of them he thought up independently". Simply amazing.

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Part of me thinks it is an issue worth bringing to Hido's attention. It's not so extreme as to consider action of course - and the uploader is a few pegs beneath Hido in terms of technique and construction of the images - but I believe he's getting pretty close to nailing it.

I believe this is the photographer's site....
Dead Link Removed

Even if there are similarities, in the US an aesthetic is not protected.....

If it was many landscapers wd be contacted by the Adams estate.....

OP, why are you so often calling out others for emulating styles? I can remember your thread re Apug folks who are following in the tripod holes of Adams? What is your motive? Who are you to judge so often?

addendum, OP, have you ever seen these kind of visuals?
http://datagroup2010.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/music1.jpg


http://johnnyholland.org/wp-content/uploads/poster.jpg

zsas said:

I believe this is the photographer's site....
Dead Link Removed

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It's clear from the site that he doesn't have any intention of selling the work as original Hido images at least. Perhaps he even knows him or has run into him, but I'm very surprised he has the portraits, houses and landscapes in particular all together on a personal site.

zsas said:

OP, why are you so often calling out others for emulating styles? I can remember your thread re Apug folks who are following in the tripod holes of Adams? What is your motive? Who are you to judge so often?

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This is the first time I've said anything about imitation, that I can recall. No motive other than hoping the topic will open up some discussion beyond materials, equipment and the science of photography.

Would you like me to accompany my CV/resume with every post I make? Who is anyone to judge? This is a public forum, less a court hearing, but if the opening post has made it sound like such, it wasn't my intention. I think the problem might be that I'm coming across a little over invested in the photographers work.

Batwister -
I believe Hido and the photographer in question (Humphrey) are both are from San Francisco, any night shot in that area using color film would look similar (IMHO).

You have specifically critiqued photographers here, eg this post:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Yes it is the internet, no resume needed to critique, as we all know, I just wonder why you call out other artists specifically, who may be emulating (plagiarizing in your view) others or doing styles that you find not relevant for the times and comment that they are some how on a less genuine path than the masters (e.g., Adams, Hido, etc.)?

Maybe I have it all wrong and you are asking us to think about what we do and move to a more unique and personal view? I don’t know, I think I once said, that judging others is not appropriate because you don’t know if s/he is in the state of copy/transform/combine, i.e., that Kirby Ferguson video I think I have posted to some of your comments before…

I love artistic philosophy debate, it just comes across that your tone is bit brash and you might instead of inspire one to come up with his/her style, discourage…

This is not plagiarism as no artist exists in a vacuum. We are all influenced by others and it doesn't matter if you copy style because your work will always be unique to you.

i think it would be an easy task to link to famous photographers
and link to others who emulate their style ...
there really isn't much that hasn't been done before, so it would be very easy.

in the end does it really matter ?
nope, it is just something people like to do to prove they can.

is it plagiarism or stealing intellectual property ? im not a lawyer or
someone who plays one on tv, but i think it is a huge stretch to say it is either.
was the marlboro man photograph that sold for millions plagiarism or stolen intellectual property,
nope it was sold for millions ...

zsas said:

You have specifically critiqued photographers here, eg this post:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Yes it is the internet, no resume needed to critique, as we all know, I just wonder why you call out other artists specifically, who may be emulating (plagiarizing in your view) others or doing styles that you find not relevant for the times and comment that they are some how on a less genuine path than the masters (e.g., Adams, Hido, etc.)?

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I was very careful to pick relatively anonymous photographers and certainly didn't say anything disparaging - simply that the visual languages were aesthetically based in different time periods. I very much doubt the photographers in question would feel attacked by this, and like talking in a pub, I felt there was very little risk of them overhearing. A direct email on the other hand or nasty comment on the photographer's Flickr pictures would be a different story! - something I'd never do.

zsas said:

Maybe I have it all wrong and you are asking us to think about what we do and move to a more unique and personal view? I don’t know, I think I once said, that judging others is not appropriate because you don’t know if s/he is in the state of copy/transform/combine, i.e., that Kirby Ferguson video I think I have posted to some of your comments before…

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To clear that up. The thread you linked to was a pretty frank (and perhaps brash!) attempt to try and raise awareness of very specific community concerns, that I feel inhibit individuality and originality. Sometimes, when you're engaged in uploading to a community like this or Flickr, it's difficult to have an objective view of your images as they stand separate from it. Rather, when you're constantly conscious of the other work uploaded you see your own as a link in a chain, a part of a whole - but a small whole, which can be detached from the wider photographic world. Work becomes referential to the community and less meaningful to those who are outside it. In this regard, and I suppose what can be exciting (especially with Flickr's 'explore') is some people can become a big fish in a small pond - which comes back to the photographer you've named - 'H' I'll call him . Outside of Flickr he may be inhibited by the fact that his work is in the shadow of Hido, but within Flickr it succeeds, but only on the basis that many people are naive to what is going on outside - namely, Todd Hido. In this way I seem to have a consistent concern with my threads here, it's true. I think it's important to be open to everything going on everywhere and to be very wary of only considering your photography's worth in these small boxes - which only seem to give work a limited life span/universality.

batwister said:

Part of me thinks it is an issue worth bringing to Hido's attention.

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I believe he knows.

zsas said:

OP, why are you so often calling out others for emulating styles? I can remember your thread re Apug folks who are following in the tripod holes of Adams? What is your motive? Who are you to judge so often?

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Why not? I think his first post here was quite articulate and respectful. Plus, to me anyway, following tripod holes of Ansel Adams, someone so famous and who's work is so ubiquitous as to border on almost kitschy in some cases, is different than perhaps in this case. And this is truly a matter of following tripod holes that goes quite a bit beyond the emulation of an Adams image taken in a place as touristy as Yosemite where literally millions of others have shot. I've been near some of these locations in Daly City and close by. Quite a bit less interest from the public in taking such images that I can see....

Many folks have photographed Detroit and the urban decay, lots of these, X was first or Y is just like X get in the way. The idea that the public when using aggregators like Flickr put X's photog's near Y's is a fact of life. Is anyone buying anything there (Flickr)? If Y looks like s/he was first when really X was, is just a fact of art.

Check of Exit Through the Gift Shop

I learned from seeing that, that I just try to like what I like (but know why)...

These kind of community service call outs of artists seem witch hunting

You know the joke: How many photographers are needed to change a bulb?

50.
One to change the bulb.
The others to say:
I could do it myself;
I could do it myself;
I could do it myself;
I could do it myself;
...

This person wanted to do it himself. It's not too difficult to imitate a photography.

I think the guy on Flickr found out we were talking about him. The Flickr links all redirect to a Yahoo! login page.

Brian C. Miller said:

I think the guy on Flickr found out we were talking about him. The Flickr links all redirect to a Yahoo! login page.

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Car/House still works for me. The others seem to have been made Private.

If you copy something once, you're a plagerizer. If you copy something from 5 different people, they were the ones who "inspired your style"