Is this film fungus, among us?

[peter k.]

Strange... never saw anything like this.

Now is this fungus, expired film, or... ?
Taking the negative, and holding it sideways, to light, emulsion side up, and looking at it with a magnifying glass, I can see nothing pitted or raised off the surface. On the edges of the film, that was not exposed, you can see the grey 'spotted' areas through the clear negative.
The film holders are clean, as far as I can tell. Looked at them carefully under a magnifying glass. No sign of anything growing on them., or had been gowning on them, on the dark slide, holder surface inside film chamber or out.

The scanned sample below was the worse, and the holder, most likely was on the the outside of the group, of three from the time in 2010.
All six negatives showed some of the same characteristic signs, and where all developed at the same time.

Any ideas?

Background:
Efke 100 film that has been in 3x4 film holders that I shot this last weekend from I believe 2010. They stayed un-shot in a very wet climate of Waller Texas, NE of Houston Tx, for about six months back then, and then have been in our normal dry climate since then.
Decided I needed to clear the holders for Arista 200, and shot them during the Sedona Marathon.

(Had a lot of fun, as it was the first time, I used the ole '46' Anniversary Speed, as a press camera. Shooting by using the steel ..pop ups, whatever ya call them, without individual focus and composing. Dang trouble was, the road was hidden by cloud for the entire time that the Marathon went on. Great for the runners coming up the hill, but bla for photos. Will have to try my hand more at this type of shooting, off the cuff.)

 

[JDP]

Well this is intersting because I also came accross very similar marks on a film I developed recently, also for the first time. The film was a Rollei Retro 400 (expiry 2016). It was developed in Microdol-X together with an Ilford fim. The Ilford film came out perfect, the Rollei simlar to yours.

I attach a couple of examples. In the first, note the 'straight line' of marks at the top of the image. This leads me to believe in some sort of film fault but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions. You can see that the pictures are hopelessly underexposed. I rated this film at 200 ISO, and took an incident reading with a Gossen Digiflash meter before each shot.

The film was from a pack of 5. The first two films developed came out clean - no marks, but significantly underexposed (still just useable). This was the third film. Since buying the film it was stored in my fridge. I doubt I will shoot the last two films.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It could be. Or it could be bacteria.

Very unusual with B&W film though.

Try a formalin bath of about 3% to try and halt this.

PE

 

[RattyMouse]

It could be. Or it could be bacteria.

Very unusual with B&W film though.

Try a formalin bath of about 3% to try and halt this.

PE

Careful! Formaldehyde is strongly suspected to be a carcinogan. 3% in water is also an extremely high dosage in today's world. In my products, I've never gone higher than 3% formaldehyde in concentrate, designed to be diluted down to 5%.

Use very sparingly and in well ventilated areas!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Nitrile gloves would be a good idea.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Commercial formalin is sold here at 37%. If you use 10 ml of that in 1 L of water, that should be enough. It was (and is) used in the E6 process to prevent fungus. However, that said, this is the worst case in B&W that I have ever seen, if it is indeed fungus (or bacteria). Silver metal is a bacteriostat and fungistat. Therefore these results surprise me and hint that it may not be either a fungus or bacteria. It may be something else going on during storage.

PE

 

[peter k.]

It could be. Or it could be bacteria.

Very unusual with B&W film though.

Try a formalin bath of about 3% to try and halt this.

PE

..and bathe what?
The film.. holders.. the tank is was developed in?
All?

 

[peter k.]

...these results surprise me and hint that it may not be either a fungus or bacteria. It may be something else going on during storage.

PE

Could it be condensation?
It was so humid down there, that my cell phone in my pocket finally just quit working. Got a new one that could work if it fell in water. Still use it today.

 

[AgX]

It could be [fungus]. Or it could be bacteria.

Would not in both cases a surface defect be visible?

 

[RattyMouse]

Commercial formalin is sold here at 37%. If you use 10 ml of that in 1 L of water, that should be enough. It was (and is) used in the E6 process to prevent fungus. However, that said, this is the worst case in B&W that I have ever seen, if it is indeed fungus (or bacteria). Silver metal is a bacteriostat and fungistat. Therefore these results surprise me and hint that it may not be either a fungus or bacteria. It may be something else going on during storage.

PE

Good point PE. This strongly suggests something other than a biological cause.

 

[AgX]

It could be. Or it could be bacteria.

Very unusual with B&W film though.

Unusual with colour films too, as you have overlooked that they contain silver too.
At least at that stage...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Color film at that stage have no Ag metal to act as preservatives.

The fact that there are no surface defects bother me but the defects do look like biological degradation. This is what is confusing to me.

PE

 

[Doremus Scudder]

You don't state which developer you used. I've seen similar defects caused by powdered developers in which the chemicals were not completely dissolved before use. Small particles speed up development on certain spots of the film causing small areas of greater density.

Try fixing an unexposed, undeveloped sheet and see what you get. If the defects are there, it's in the film before exposure/development.

If nothing, then try developing/stopping/fixing an unexposed sheet and see what you get.

Good luck,

Doremus

 

[Jim Jones]

It looks like the fungus in some of my Kodachromes and negatives from long ago.

 

[peter k.]

Not a powdered mix, which is a good thought, but developed with HC-110, top of the second stored bottle sealed and with the fresh look. Not the reddish look of older stored HC-110, that has had some air. And yes, because of the nature of HC-110, I flush out the syringe, several times in the developer that I have made, and then with clear water, so that it is clean for next use.

I have more sheets of Efke, but they are in the box, stored in freezer. No more that where in film holders from 2010, used them all up, but :

Try fixing an unexposed, undeveloped sheet and see what you get. If the defects are there, it's in the film before exposure/development.

as stated, the clear area's along the edges, show the grey area's and 'dots', so it was with, on, the unexposed sheet.

Hmm... Have two older daylight tanks, that I have set up, one for 4x5 and the other for 3x4. The 3x4 one I have not developed in for a while and did not rinse it out, before developing. But when stored on shelf, it lays on its side, so the top is not open to dust. But doubt, if it where dust, it would give this look.


Question was not answered, what would condensation look like???
Would it be like this, if it took place, and then dried on the surface of the film?
Got very busy down there, and gear was put away in a corner, and not touched for about six months. Used some 35mm down there, but that was in-cased in camera. Not like film holders, in a sense, which where exposed to the change in a very moist, humid, environment. Day after day.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

As PE points out fungus is more of a problem with color films. The only time I have seen it was in color slides that had been put in glass mounts. The branching structure of the mycelia was clearly visible. It could be bacteria but unlikely in an emulsion containing silver. In either case it is a rather rare problem.

 

[Photo Engineer]

This does not look like condensation.

 

[Jim Noel]

I have never seen fungus in any of my Kodachromes, and I have over a hundred from its first year of manufacture. Other slides, yes, but not Kodachrome.

 

[peter k.]

This does not look like condensation.

Ok we got a wild duck... they are wood film holders, don't like the idea of wetting them, in the process of cleaning them. Should we just mark it up as an experience, and go forward, reload them, and see if it happens again?
I know which one they are..

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, I looked at some very old Tri-X in a holder for decades and it has a similar appearance when unprocessed. The branching filaments and all. But, the surface appears and feels rough. So, IDK. I would guess fungus.

And BTW, Silver Halide in unprocessed film (which mine is) does not retard fungus. And, some fungus is starting to appear on the camera that my film was stored with. This is a baby Watson stored in a damp basement and which I rescued with film and holders. I've been fighting rust and fungus on it ever since then.

PE

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

There was a thread a year or two ago either on APUG or LFPF started by someone in a rural area who had a water storage tank. He was getting tiny hairlike deposits on his film. I suggested it was bacteria. The OP treated his tank and the issue persisted. I still think it was bacteria.

My tap water is provided by a tiny water company that supplies water for fewer than 300 homes. I used to drink the water and gave it to my pets but now I don't even cook with it. If I leave the water in a pet bowl for more than a couple of days the bowl becomes slimey. If I leave it for several days and dump the water I see long strands of slime. When I switched to bottle water that completely went away. Now I only shower, wash clothes and flush toilets with tap water.

I won't be mixing my chemicals in my tap water and will make several exchanges with distilled water with a few drops of chlorine bleach before I do my final dunk in PhotoFlo.

 

[peter k.]

Ok, I looked at some very old Tri-X in a holder for decades and it has a similar appearance when unprocessed. The branching filaments and all. ... So, IDK. I would guess fungus.

... I've been fighting rust and fungus on it ever since then.

PE

Ok... you evidently used Formaldehyde, or could I use bleach instead... but the question of the day.. how?
Never done anything like this.. Where did you use it, how did you use it?

Thanks for any help.. still don't know if I will.. it seems it just might be a wild duck... and may never see it again, or gasp, I could spread it by not taking care of it. So I'm a IDK to.. :confused:
Nuts..

 

[Photo Engineer]

Don't use bleach.

 

[Rudeofus]

Don't use bleach.

Would a final rinse (STAB) from color processing help here (assuming it is bacteria/fungus we see in these scans) ? I have looked at a number of antibacterial/antifungal compounds listed in photographic literature, and they are very toxic in concentrated form, nobody would sell these to amateurs (and rightfully so).

BTW one commonly available substance known to kill fungus (while being harmless to film) is Acetic Acid. It would be interesting (and give strong support to the bacteria/fungus theory) if immersing peter k.'s film samples in an Acetic Acid based stop bath would visibly change their appearance. Note that Acetic Acid is quite volatile, so the film won't stay protected after the treatment!

 

[peter k.]

I really don't understand fungus... and really don't want to contaminate the rest of my equipment, and really don't want to go with toxic cleaning.
Sigh..
Perhaps, these old film holders, (of my dad's) have had fungus in them, since .... but never before now, has any film been kept in them, for this long a period of time. Never have had a problem like this since I resurrected the camera.. I believe in late 2009.
Hmmm... catch 22..