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Is this due to the shutter being too fast?

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zanxion72

zanxion72

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Could you please help me identify the problem? Is this a shutter sync issue? If it was due to a shutter speed been too fast shouldn't it be at the lower part of the frame?
This was shot with a Nikon FM at 1/125 (the flash sync speed of the camera) and an Nikon SB-27 tilted left or right.

Edit: I did a small test with the film door of the camera open against a wall and I can see the lower part of the frame shaded at 1/125s but not at 1/60. Does that mean that the 1/125 setting on the speed dial runs actually faster than 1/125? Does this call for a CLA?

20220113-121302.jpg
 
Last edited:
zanxion72 said:
Could you please help me identify the problem? Is this a shutter sync issue? If it was due to a shutter speed been too fast shouldn't it be at the lower part of the frame?
This was shot with a Nikon FM at 1/125 (the flash sync speed of the camera) and an Nikon SB-27 tilted left or right.

Edit: I did a small test with the film door of the camera open against a wall and I can see the lower part of the frame shaded at 1/125s but not at 1/60. Does that mean that the 1/125 setting on the speed dial runs actually faster than 1/125? Does this call for a CLA?

20220113-121302.jpg
Click to expand...

could be one of several things:
1. camera sync speed is sloer than 1/125th s
2. sync not set to 2st curtain
3. flash reaching peak too fast
3.shutter bounce
setting the shutter speed to 1/60th s, to be on the safe side, should fix the issue.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
could be one of several things:
1. camera sync speed is sloer than 1/125th s
2. sync not set to 2st curtain
3. flash reaching peak too fast
3.shutter bounce
setting the shutter speed to 1/60th s, to be on the safe side, should fix the issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ralph,
It seems that 1/60s is what I should use regardless of the camera manual giving it a 1/125 top flash shutter sync. Could it be that due to age the 1/125 of the camera stated to run faster, or the manual being too optimistic with 1/125 being the top flash sync speed for the FM?
 
If the spec for the top sync speed is 125, you shouldn’t see a cut off like that, so the camera may likely need a tuneup.
But, you you really only need that sort of speed if you’re trying to fill shadows in daylight or some similar situation.
For indoors where the ambient light isn’t strong 1/60 is fine. If the camera is working correctly and consistently otherwise, you could just live with it, and not use flash at 1/125.
 
zanxion72 said:
Thanks Ralph,
It seems that 1/60s is what I should use regardless of the camera manual giving it a 1/125 top flash shutter sync. Could it be that due to age the 1/125 of the camera stated to run faster, or the manual being too optimistic with 1/125 being the top flash sync speed for the FM?
Click to expand...
It means the shutter needs some adjustment primarily the shutter curtain travel time. It could be too long
 
Chan Tran said:
It means the shutter needs some adjustment primarily the shutter curtain travel time. It could be too long
Click to expand...
Does that mean that one of the curtains travels slower than it should?
 
zanxion72 said:
Does that mean that one of the curtains travels slower than it should?
Click to expand...
I think the first curtain travels slower than it should. Basically the camera releases the first curtain and after the exposure time it releases the second curtain. The curtain should be fast enough to open fully before the second curtain is released. When it's was correct at 1/125 it would open fully slightly before the second curtain is released. Now it open fully slightly after the the second curtain is release. You can increase the spring tension on the first curtain and fix the problem. However, it's not the correct way. One should have a shutter tester that can measure the speed of the shutter curtain to verify that before making adjustment. Because as you said the second curtain may be got released slightly earlier.
 
The real definition of X-sync speed on a focal plane shutter is 'the shutter speed at which both curtains of the focal plane shutter are both OPEN FULLY'
if the shutter is not 'fully open' when it should, that is 'not X-sync speed'. But the camera was designed so that the curtains both SHOULD be open!

Because the curtains are not open fully, the net effect of that is 'exposure is not for the indicated time', because the second curtain is closing too soon. But as also indicated, the first curtain could be moving too slow,so it does not get to its fully open position before the second curtain starts moving across the opening.
 
Chan Tran said:
I think the first curtain travels slower than it should. Basically the camera releases the first curtain and after the exposure time it releases the second curtain. The curtain should be fast enough to open fully before the second curtain is released. When it's was correct at 1/125 it would open fully slightly before the second curtain is released. Now it open fully slightly after the the second curtain is release. You can increase the spring tension on the first curtain and fix the problem. However, it's not the correct way. One should have a shutter tester that can measure the speed of the shutter curtain to verify that before making adjustment. Because as you said the second curtain may be got released slightly earlier.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the great explanation! I guess that my trusty FM should be on its way to CLA. As soon as I finish the current roll (at least this does not show up on daylight shots) it is off for CLA.
 
zanxion72 said:
Thanks Ralph,
It seems that 1/60s is what I should use regardless of the camera manual giving it a 1/125 top flash shutter sync. Could it be that due to age the 1/125 of the camera stated to run faster, or the manual being too optimistic with 1/125 being the top flash sync speed for the FM?
Click to expand...
well, the flash sync speed of your FM is apparently not 1/125. That may be repairable but the repair man costume more than another used Nikon FM.
 
Huss said:
All this curtain talk when the Fm does not have shutter curtains.
Click to expand...
The FM uses the Copal Square S shutter, and it has five metal blades in front, three at the back), which traverse the film gate vertically, rather than horizontally.
Much similar on concept to modern shutters found in dSLRs.
 
Last edited:
RalphLambrecht said:
well, the flash sync speed of your FM is apparently not 1/125. That may be repairable but the repair man costume more than another used Nikon FM.
Click to expand...
The Copal Square shutter had the fastest X-sync speed for its time, 1/125. Something is ailing the OP camera.
 
Huss said:
All this curtain talk when the Fm does not have shutter curtains.
Click to expand...
They still use the term curtain for current DSLR and Mirrorless with bladed shutter. Even when there is no physical shutter they still use the term curtain for the electronic shutter.
 
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RalphLambrecht said:
Every focal plane shutter has a first and the second curtain! How else would it adjust the timing?
Click to expand...

Shutter curtains - two - are used in horizontal travel shutters. Two cloth type curtains, hence the name.

Vertical travel shutters tend to be made out of multiple blades. With two sets of them.

I am curious though - is there a metal bladed horizontal shutter? The Nikon SP used titanium cloth, but it was still cloth, and still just two pieces.
And also, are there vertical travel shutter curtains? In 35mm cameras? I'd guess in medium format there is as the configuration is more symmetrical with the SLR type cameras.
Many medium format cameras have leaf shutters in the lenses.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
well, the flash sync speed of your FM is apparently not 1/125. That may be repairable but the repair man costume more than another used Nikon FM.
Click to expand...
Not big deal, I will try using 1/60. Some friend of mine had the same problem with his FM and he said that the flash is not triggered at the proper moment. He said that he fixed it and he could fix mine too, but I'd prefer having it professionally CLA'ed (or buy another one :smile: ).
 
Huss said:
Shutter curtains - two - are used in horizontal travel shutters. Two cloth type curtains, hence the name.

Vertical travel shutters tend to be made out of multiple blades. With two sets of them.

I am curious though - is there a metal bladed horizontal shutter? The Nikon SP used titanium cloth, but it was still cloth, and still just two pieces.
And also, are there vertical travel shutter curtains? In 35mm cameras? I'd guess in medium format there is as the configuration is more symmetrical with the SLR type cameras.
Many medium format cameras have leaf shutters in the lenses.
Click to expand...
The Nikon F2 and F3 for sure. I am not sure about the Nikon F. Also the Hasselblad 2000FC has metal shutter too. Which got damaged easily if you're not careful.
My mistake there is no metal bladed shutter that I know off. The bladed shutter is needed for vertical because there is no room for the full curtain but vertical has advantage of shorter distance.
 
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I found the culprit! On the shutter blades there was a point of dirt, sticky dirt. That single spot was slowing down the upper curtain in such a way that on every speed above 1/125 there was not enough time for the shutter to open completely. I didn't see that, because you must wind the shutter to see the upper curtain come down. I cleaned it with benzene and then again with a cotton bud moistened with just a tad of water and now everything is back to normal. It puzzles me where that spot came from. The seals are fresh and still new, the mirror bumper as well.
It is not an expensive camera to die for, but I hate owing things that partially work.
 
Last edited:
zanxion72 said:
I found the culprit! On the shutter blades there was a point of dirt, sticky dirt. That single spot was slowing down the upper curtain in such a way that on every speed above 1/125 there was not enough time for the shutter to open completely. I didn't see that, because you must wind the shutter to see the upper curtain come down. I cleaned it with benzene and then again with a cotton bud moistened with just a tad of water and now everything is back to normal. It puzzles me where that spot came from. The seals are fresh and still new, the mirror bumper as well.
It is not an expensive camera to die for, but I hate owing things that partially work.
Click to expand...

good for you. How are you can enjoy it again.
 
RalphLambrecht said:
good for you. How are you can enjoy it again.
Click to expand...
Although I love my more expensive cameras, I enjoy this one quite a bit as due to being cheap, I focus more on taking photos than caring about the external looks of my camera.
 
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