Is this a good buy?

Moizak · Feb 23, 2012

Hey guys,

Firstly, I am a newcomer to LF photography with my little experience having been almost exclusively in the 35mm film and digital arena. I have not touched film for about 5 years (during which time my dad decided to clear storage and get rid of all my darkroom stuff!) but have recently had a revival since I made myself a pinhole camera a few weekends ago, bought some chemicals and trays, and have started making pictures on Harmans Direct Positive paper.

I have enjoyed the slow down and the thought process and so would like to have a little bit of LF equipment with which to play and relax. I would mostly be photographing around the house, portraits of kids and other family members, and the occasional landscape (I may pack the gear into the car when we go camping but would never be carrying the gear very far, I don't intend to hike with it, I have enough to carry with 4 kids in tow!)

So, I have been reading and reading and trying to see what sort of thing would suit me best and I think I am pretty much settled on a monorail, mostly because it has all the movements and I would like to have them all to start with, learn what they all do and then decide whether I need them or not.

So, I have seen in a shop what looks like Sinar Norma, with a 75mm f8 Super Angulon, a 150mm Schneider Symmar f5.6, 4 DDS, hood and shutter release. The website (it is a reputable camera store with a few shops) says it is in good condition. I have seen 3 photos of it and it looks in decent enough condition.

The whole lot is on sale for £500......my question to you all, is this a good deal and is it the right sort of thing for me to start my LF journey with?

Many thanks in advance for your replies.

Moiz

Sirius Glass · Feb 23, 2012

Repost your question on http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/ if you are interested in multiple informed [for the most part] responses.

Steve

keithwms · Feb 23, 2012

Moiz, for the subject matter described, I think a field or press camera would be a more appropriate purchase. Are you looking to do any kind of architectural photography requiring a lot of standard movements?

Let me suggest a speed graphic, or if you don't require many movements at all, a crown graphic. since you didn't describe any architecture and such, I suspect that either of these would be a good choice and would be easier to work with in more candid situations as well.

If uncertain about how much tilt and shift movement you need, let me suggest looking at Adams' The Camera and see if you can spend a little time working with some LF cameras- perhaps a local apugger could give you a tour.

If you really like pinhole then I'd suggest going for a larger format e.g. 5x7 at least, and then try your hand at contact printing. There are many affordable LF or ULF cameras now, if you just watch out for them. E.g. look at the Korona view cameras or the Pocos, etc. Those have very modest movements but you really don't need them for pinhole.

I have nothing against the Norma, mind you, for some reason it just didn't strike me as the best choice for what you describe.

Sirius Glass · Feb 23, 2012

More to what Keith said. I use a 4"x5" Pacemaker Speed Graphic and a 4"x5" Graflex Model D because I usually shoot hand held. The prices are lower for press cameras and you can usually get your money back if you later decide to upgrade.

pgomena · Feb 23, 2012

I agree with the above posts. A Norma is a grand camera, but heavy and slow to use. For occasional light use as you describe, a good used press camera is a better option. Look for a Crown Graphic with a clean Schneider 135mm press lens. Save the extra money for film.

Peter Gomena

Moizak · Feb 24, 2012

Hi guys

Thank you all for your replies. My initial research did have me searching for a Graflex camera but unfortunately they just aren't that readily available here in the UK. I think our equivalent is the MPP and that same shop is selling one of those for £100 less.

However, I think part of the process for me is the learning aspect and I think that's why I was drawn to a monorail. It's gives me all the movements so I can physically see what happens when I do this and that.

Although architectural photography is not a hobby I am in the building trade by profession doing a lot of interior design and I would be tempted to experiment in that environment too. It just wouldn't be where I'd cut my teeth.

If however your collective experience still thinks I would get a better learning experience from a press or field camera then I will rethink things.

Again, kind regards and thank you for taking the time to reply.

M

bdial · Feb 24, 2012

A Linhof Technica III might be a consideration. They are more or less equivalent to a Crown Graphic. The IV's are more desirable and hence, pricey, but you may be able to find a III at a good (i.e. cheap) price.

Ian Grant · Feb 24, 2012

MPP's are fine but go for to much now, steer away from the MicroPress thogh.

It's a case of sitting patiently for a good camera to come along at a fair price, it's not like the US where there's plenty of cameras available all the time. Buying larger items from the US means it's quite unlikely you wouldn't be charged Import Duty and then VAT on top, and that's on the value of the camera and the shipping costs. So a $500 camera with $50 shipping could cost you $690 !!!!

I don't know where you are in the UK but if you're near North Worcestershire you're welcome to come and have a go with some different LF cameras.

Ian

paul_c5x4 · Feb 24, 2012

Ian Grant said:
I don't know where you are in the UK but if you're near North Worcestershire you're welcome to come and have a go with some different LF cameras.

Same offer here - If you're in Norfolk, I have a couple of cameras you're welcome to play with.

P.S. In these parts, we shoot 5x4 film.

Moizak · Feb 24, 2012

Ian and Paul, thanks for your kind offers. I am just off the NW side of the M25 so I'm not a million miles away from either of you.

Ian, you said you often have to sit and wait for a good buy to come along....knowing the UK market, do you feel the item I have described above at £500 constitutes a good buy or is it merely a fair price for what it is?

I'm very tempted to buy it and despite the excellent advice given above I think I have my heart set on having a machine with a complete range of movements (or at least having a machine that doesn't have a minimal range of movements) if only to be able to experiment. It isn't just about the final image for me, it's very much about the journey too.

Thanks again to all that have replied, bdial, the Linhof looks beautiful but is way out of my price range at the moment, from what I can see.

keithwms · Feb 24, 2012

There is an informed school of thought that suggests you should get the camera with the the most flexibility for initial lessons, and that'd be a monorail like the Norma. It is a perfectly good learning camera, if you plan to work methodically through perspective correction and Scheimpflug and bellows factor etc and learn about all the many possibilities.

But... unless you will routinely need substantial tilt and swing, I still think a field camera is a better buy in the long run. My first LF rig was a great big 8x10 monorail. I schlepped that thing all over God's creation and didn't actually get too many shots to show for it. Then I got a crown graphic and then a fantastic, light, wooden field camera, a King Poco 5x7, and suddenly I enjoyed LF! Now I have a bunch of light, wooden oldies, they are super and much more conducive to travel.

If you are into ultrawide and/or architecture and/or macro, then a monorail is preferable, perhaps even essential. But I'd venture to say that most people who buy field cameras will keep them and use them more on a routine basis, and pick up a monorail only if they really need one. I see a lot of monorails on shelves, honestly.

Anyway, this is all very individual and my thoughts may not fit what you want to do. You certainly shouldn't let our comments dissuade you from embarking on more thorough lessons, if that's what you want. In any case, definitely take up Ian's or Paul's or other apugger's offers to get your hands on a camera, it can make a big difference.

Moizak · Feb 24, 2012

I totally see the advantages that not having a hernia can have when it comes to lugging a great big lump of equipment around in order to take a picture. But I also see the advantage of only taking one photo a week (my wife won't notice the cost of film draining our account!).

I really do think the last bits of advice I have had are the best though.....I need to get my hands on one before I buy. I think there is that part of my brain that is saying if I don't buy a monorail I may be taking a shot and wishing there was a certain movement I could do but I can't because it isn't on the particular camera I bought.

As ever, thank you for taking time out of your day to reply to this thread.

pgomena · Feb 24, 2012

If that's what you want, than that's what you should buy. I can't speak to the price of the Norma in the store window, but they are wonderful cameras and certainly will do everything you'll ever need a camera to do. I'd like to own one simply for the aesthetics. I can't justify owning one or have need for one, but they are shiny objects of desire. As a classic camera, it probably will hold a good deal of its value for resale if it's in good condition. If it is not in good condition, parts may be hard to find.

Peter Gomena

Ian Grant · Feb 24, 2012

Moizak said:
Ian, you said you often have to sit and wait for a good buy to come along....knowing the UK market, do you feel the item I have described above at £500 constitutes a good buy or is it merely a fair price for what it is?

I'd guess that £500 for a Sinar Norma, a 75mm f8 SA and a 150mm Symmar is about the going rate from a UK dealer, you don't say whether the lenses are Multi-coated versions but even if not they are still good lenses. I do use a 75mm f8 SA and it's a great lens.

Ian

eclarke · Feb 24, 2012

paul_c5x4 said:
Same offer here - If you're in Norfolk, I have a couple of cameras you're welcome to play with.

P.S. In these parts, we shoot 5x4 film.

HaHa, rotate your camera 90 degrees!!..Evan Clarke

Sirius Glass · Feb 24, 2012

Moizak said:
Thank you all for your replies. My initial research did have me searching for a Graflex camera but unfortunately they just aren't that readily available here in the UK. I think our equivalent is the MPP and that same shop is selling one of those for £100 less.

Come to the States on 'oliday, buy a Graphic and tell Customs that you found it in the corner of your Aunt's attic so it can't be worth much!

k_jupiter · Feb 26, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
Come to the States on 'oliday, buy a Graphic and tell Customs that you found it in the corner of your Aunt's attic so it can't be worth much!

Customs? Can't remember the last time I saw a Customs person at Heathrow. Last I checked, all the baggage comes out the same belt system and no one ever asked to go through my dainties.

Besides, you all do get a traveling exemption? I can bring $700.00 dollars worth of stuff back into the states without paying anything. You must have a similar deal there?

And 500 GBP would buy a dang nice Speed.

tim in san jose

Is this a good buy?

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