is there a right "print"?

eric · Sep 19, 2005

When I print, I usually like it just a little less constrast than most people. Is that too weird? I see a lot of great photos and I think the contrast is right on. But when I print and I'll make one that I *THINK* is constrasty for most tastes, but then I wind up making one less constrasty for my taste.

Does this make the print "wrong"?

I know the difference between a muddy print and not enough. But I think in terms of ranges, there's a low range of acceptable contrast and a high range of acceptable contrast. Is this how others percieve it or do you guys have a magic bullet that says "this is the perfect contrast".

Dave Parker · Sep 19, 2005

It is the right print, if it pleases you, no matter what type of print it is, everybody is going to percieve in their own manner, the most successful photographers print for themselves and let it fall where it may with everybody else.

Just my .02

Dave

Bob F. · Sep 19, 2005

but then I wind up making one less constrasty for my taste.

Does this make the print "wrong"?

How can it? If it looks right to you, it is right.

You might get some negative comment from a camera club judge or similar, but frankly, who cares?

Cheers, Bob.

reellis67 · Sep 19, 2005

Yo ho ho! I be seein' many images that I think are a bit overdone. I think it be a function of modern society (the bilge rats) which be preferin' the more direct approach. Them lubbers be likin' more saturation in color and more contrast in black and white than be there in reality. I be appreciatin' the subtlety of images that be realistic in appearance much more than images that be overdone, but others think I be nuts. I'm sure I am, but for different reasons. I be inclined to think you be able to appreciate the subtle rather than needin' to be clubbed in the head with a belayin' pin as it were. The old salts be likin' the real look and them young hands be hittin' the grog too hard an' can't see ifn' it aint popin off a' page. Ye be fine, sailor. It's them whats addled...

- Yellowbeard

(www.talklikeapirate.com) International Talk Like a Pirate Day 2005

User Removed · Sep 19, 2005

The "correct" or "right" print is the one that expresses your original vision and feelings when you were making the photograph.

When beginning photo student at the school come to me with a wet print, asking should it be darker/lighter, more contrast/less contrast... I tell them to first make a print showing what they saw when they took that picture. THEN, go back into the darkroom and make a print showing how you felt when you made that photograph. Afterwards...compare the two and see which you like best. I bet it will be the later.

Gerald Koch · Sep 19, 2005

How you print a particular negative depends on the viewing conditions under which the print will be seen. For example, if the location is brightly lit then you would print darker than if the illumination were average. This is often a tough decision.

John Cook · Sep 19, 2005

I believe that a print must satisfy four criteria:

A display print (wallhanger) must "read" properly in the proposed display area. Don't judge a print under bright light over the darkroom sink and then hang it in a dimly-lit living room.

A print must be made for its intended purpose. A print which is "raw material" for a lithographer must be flatter than normal, or shadow/highlight detail will be lost in the printing process.

The important subject of the print must read (or be hidden) properly. Perhaps the detail in an expensive white wedding gown is more important than the wrinkles in the groom's tuxedo. If you are doing a commercial catalogue of black leather gloves, detail in the client's gloves matters most, above everything else in the frame.

As an amateur working for yourself, not prostituted to a commercial client, you must print to satisfy your own good personal taste. It is as much an expression of your art as the composition or placement of the focus. I personally find shadow detail and pastel softness much more pleasing than garish blatant contrast. In a print, lots of black is not beautiful.

scootermm · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
Kind of sad you would even ask this question. You need your own vision.

thats entirely too rude.

naaldvoerder · Sep 19, 2005

Why sad? Everyone should question his/hers own vision ones in a while, not only artistic visions....

Dave Parker · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
Kind of sad you would even ask this question. You need your own vision.

Well I guess your name says it all, photography is about personal vision, and I always question my photographs, it is a valid question and very important question, all to often we get hung up on the process and forget the vision, I know for a fact, I am never 'outofoptions' whne it comes to my photography.

Dave

clogz · Sep 19, 2005

Any question regarding analogue photography, politely asked, is more than acceptable.

Hans

clogz · Sep 19, 2005

I simply cannot see what is wrong with inviting somebody else's opinion. It is all a matter of live and let live; always a tad difficult for those who have just discovered their "own" individuality.

Hans

Dave Parker · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
I quite disagree. You call it rude. I call it blunt. The original poster needs to decide why they take photos and what will be the criteria. His personal preference or what he sees others doing. Sometimes it really is true the whole world is wrong and YOU are right. Or maybe just right for this moment in time. ;-) I will always see it as sad when someone lets others determine their sense of aestetichs. And I don't need to ask ANYONE'S opinion on that.

After 20 years of making my linving with a camera, I wish I was at the point I did not have to ask others opinions, you must be really good, where can I see your work?

Dave

clogz · Sep 19, 2005

I'm glad you're letting your hair down...but please "suffer"others to do the same.

Hans

gnashings · Sep 19, 2005

Satinsnow said:
After 20 years of making my linving with a camera, I wish I was at the point I did not have to ask others opinions, you must be really good, where can I see your work?

Dave

Well said, Dave!

I didn't percieve this as a "how should my pictures look" type post. I think it was an invite to discussion and feedback on how we percieve our own work - perhaps to share what questions croos each of our minds when we look at a photograph.

True enough, I am 100% behind the "follow your own vision" approach. Even if you are making a print for sale - you are getting paid because you are the photographer - knowledge, technique, vision and all. And when printing for yourself, that rings even more true.

However - I think any hobby or profession is a learning process. I would go as far as to propose that it is the learning that makes anything fascinate us and captivate our interest for a long, long time. And inviting critique and input can only help.

I, myself, am on the other end of the spectrum - I am a bit of a contrast junky, I think... I like a lot of "pop" in my prints. And yes, I realize that its my "vision" and I want to see it that way - but it was pointed out to me that I have often lost some detail in the shadows, or blown out some highlights. And that was not my "vision" - it was a by product of what I was trying to do. Through input of others, people with a wealth of experience or just people who's opinon I value, I have arrived at prints that I like even more - by realizing that I was going a little overboard in some areas. Am I just giving in to "peer pressure"? Do I not have a mind of my own? I would like to think thats not the case (although I am sure some would argue) - I would like to think I discovered a new level of ability that allowed me to produce things even more true to my "vision" than what I was making before. I simply gained a higher level of ability and a new set of expectations - the input allowed me to set a higher bar for my own work.

(I had to put the word "vision" in parenthesis - I don't want anyone to think I fancy myself the next Leonardo DaVinci - I was simply at a loss for a better term )

Cheers,

Peter.

clogz · Sep 19, 2005

Well, it's getting a bit late here and I'm off to bed. Tomorrow is another day. With new misunderstandings, no doubt.

Hans

clogz · Sep 19, 2005

Optionless. I hereby rest my case.

eric · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
OK Eric. Was I wrong in what you meant by reading what you said? I think we need to hear back from you on this one. Or did you post and run?

You can say whatever you want, but I don't waste my time arguing on the web. Post and run? I'm no troll and I'm number 9 on this forum. I ain't going anywhere.

Hobby? Yah, but I used to do this for a living as well. I've processed thousands of negatives from Bruce Weber, Steven Maisel and a few hundred of Annie Leibowitz (oh, I can tell you stories about her). Dip and dunk and via inspection. So I knows a little something something. I've sat in the darkroom and helped with many very good printers (I guess good enough for those swanky NYC gallery shows that we always printed for) during gallery exhibition printing crunches. Madonna SEX book! I'm proud to say that I was the very, very first person to see those negs (well, me and Emmauel, we did them together). The film baskets came out of my 5 gallon fixer. OH, you should see the ones that didn't make it to the editor!

I'm guessing most people print for other people. Cause when I know it is right for me, its not right for others. But I think, technically, there's a point where *WE* (collectectively, us on this forum, cause we all know something technical right) all can say "hmmm, that just doesn't look right". But hey, if your name is Ralph Gibson, you can permanetly put #11 filter right on that sucker and nobody will say anything. (Before anyone says anything and there is no such thing as #11 filter, I'm alluding to Spinal Tap)

Ballet pix? Have you seen works by Roy Round? One of the guys back in the 70's and 80's who was the Joffrey Ballet photog. Yah, I've worked with him. Funny how very talented people wind up doing commercial work to make ends meet. I did manage to get to his show back in the late 80's.

I think you got confused because one of your replies was questioning my "right" as in my Rights as a Citizen. I didn't mean that and my Brooklyn education must not have been good so the sentence might have confused people.

So let's say, you see a nice print and say. Hey, that looks pretty good. Then you see one that is about 1/2 grade less and 1/2 grade more contrast. All 3 look technically pretty good. At what point do you say "this one". Do you say "this one" cause it is what most people will pick?

I love the post from McPhotoX about what feeling and emotion you wanted in the shot. I really like that post. I'm going to remember that when printing. I think, for me, that is the answer. Its very TAO. "The print is right cause that's the way I felt it when I took it" ... in other words.

And Yellowbeard, I love that website. I'm going to talk pirate all night to my kids when I get home.

Dave Parker · Sep 19, 2005

Well,

I do have to say, this has turned out to another BS thread..

Dave

User Removed · Sep 19, 2005

eric said:
So let's say, you see a nice print and say. Hey, that looks pretty good. Then you see one that is about 1/2 grade less and 1/2 grade more contrast. All 3 look technically pretty good. At what point do you say "this one". Do you say "this one" cause it is what most people will pick?

I love the post from McPhotoX about what feeling and emotion you wanted in the shot. I really like that post. I'm going to remember that when printing. I think, for me, that is the answer. Its very TAO. "The print is right cause that's the way I felt it when I took it" ... in other words.

If you make three prints that are all different, but technically they are "good prints" (Proper shadow detail, good highlight detail ect)... deciding what print is the CORRECT print should be simple. Each image would carry a different feel, and you pick the one that expresses how you felt at the moment of photographing.

They teach students that the "perfect print" has proper shadow detail and proper hightlight detail, so the student would go in and print an image very flat, however it does have detail in all areas of the print! On the other hand, they also say that a perfect print has pure blacks and whites...well, in that case the student would go in and print something very contrasty and loose all the fine tonalities between! Either way, if they end up with a contrasty print with good blacks and whites, or a flat print with good shadow detail and highlight detail...they are just at the beginning of creating the print, but most student will stop at this point!

When printing an image, I incourage you too print one light, dark, contrast, flat ect...and see which one is more appealing to you. You may use of paper faster, but you will develop a unique printing style of your own and questions like "what is the correct print?" will not come into your mind anymore...because you will know it when you see it!

Here is a nice quote from Brett Weston. I suggest you take a look at his work. He was a photographer with a very unique printing style unlike anyones I have ever seen, and you could spot his prints out of 100 different photographs. Pick up one of his books as soon as possible, and if you get a chance, view as much work by other photographers as you can.

"Photography is such a magnificently strong medium. I watch students fussing around, bringing all kinds of detail into the shadows. I try to tell them not to be afraid of photographic blacks. I often black out shadows so that you can't look into them. Many say they can't go to Point Lobos because Dad (Edward Weston) and I have been there, or get involved with other subjects because they've been done. Hell, its all been done---Rocks, nudes, dunes, kelp. But nature is such a magnificent arranger, and it is---all of it---always changing. You have to have an almost microscope sense, a discerning, restless eye. It's also a matter of instantaneous recognition, but you don't get this the first year. You fall in love with the image right off, but the judgement is a long time coming.
I used to mess around a long time; now I'm much more decisive in getting to the photograph.
The other thing I find about students is that they can all talk rings around me on technical matters. I've tried to tell them not to get too involved with cameras and lenses. I've got the finest equipment you can possibly obtain, but its all just machines! An obsession with the machinery can be too distracting, particularly in this kind of photography. Its gets in the way of creating." -Brett Weston-

Best of luck,
Ryan McIntosh

Click to expand...

naaldvoerder · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
Personally, I am in a position that I don't care ANYTHING about what others think of my work. I attend meetings where they 'judge' photo's. I purposely have never taken in one that conforms to the guidelines so they can never be entered into a contest. So, perhaps this gives you more insight into why I said what I did. I did not mean to be rude or offensive, but at some point, you must assert yourself if you want to be your own person.

Well, well, what brave statements you make, here and at your club, and all that just to assert yourself of being independent of other's opinions. THAT is sad. Personaly, i'm getting in a position that I don't really care about your statements. Please go to another forum and let others discuss printmaking. That is what this forum is for.....

User Removed · Sep 19, 2005

This is a great topic of dicussion and by far NOT a "BS Thread". If people could discuss things in a logical matter without getting upset, offensive or rude....we could have a great conversation here.

naaldvoerder · Sep 19, 2005

McPhotoX said:
This is a great topic of dicussion and by far NOT a "BS Thread". If people could discuss things in a logical matter without getting upset, offensive or rude....we could have a great conversation here.

You're right. I'm sorry.

Dave Parker · Sep 19, 2005

McPhotoX said:
This is a great topic of dicussion and by far NOT a "BS Thread". If people could discuss things in a logical matter without getting upset, offensive or rude....we could have a great conversation here.

The biggest problem Ryan,

Is most don't be able to discuss it in a logical manner without getting offensive or rude..

Hence my statement of it again becomming BS

Dave

eric · Sep 19, 2005

outofoptions said:
J To call a print wrong because you made it the way YOU like it? Often in these forums the old argument comes up that "I'm the professional and you are the hobbiest".

True that but this is apug...its a little different. Just because people on this list do weird and obscure things, doesn't mean they are professional or amateurs. Just dang good photographers and printers. And if you can make a decent living paying bills, soccer balls, dance shoes, car payments, mortage, a steak once in while doing this kind of work more power to you!

The local company was directed by a former Joffery dancer. We had a great working relationship, when he left town they got in some one way less talented and 'subject matter' dissappeared, so I know what it feels like.

My old friend, as I recall (dang, this was back in the mid 80's), was one of the official photographers when the Joffery was in NY. His show was a huge collection of years back. I learned a sh**load of studio stuff from him.
[/quote]

Well, I would say that depends on the purpose of the print. In the original post it sounded like you were giving up on YOUR vision and that is what disturbed me. In stage lighting

I think I was thinking about the Barry Thorton book. He recalls, in his childhood, that he wasn't a too shabby artists. His art teacher told him to do ABC and he did XYZ cause he thought that was the right thing to do. And then, the rest of the book, he becomes just like that old teacher. He's telling me and you that "you need to print like this, you need to shoot like this, you this this and that".

Perhaps too much contrast has a 'wow' factor, but does it last? Since you are making the

Perhaps, perhaps. That pop and snap gets boring after a while. I always go back in that gallery to look at the prints that have less of it. But that won't stop me form seeing any real Ralph Gibson stuff if it was showing nearby.

Folks here in Apug are artists. And being artists, that they are (gee, I hope I not generalizing but please tell me if I am), me, being a part of it, are sometimes a little insecure and we want to be reassured about some of our thought process. That's what makes agug a little different. Its not a techinical forum, its not an art forum, its not a my camera is better than your forum (mine really is and don't anyone tell me it isn't), its a loose combination of all of this. That's why we post pictures and hopefully, someone will say "I like this, or I don't like this". Once in a while, comments are technical but that doesn't make sense cause its computers and it looks different on my machine and your machine or someone else's machine. So sometimes someone would say, you need to burn it a little more here but it would look fine in my monitor.

So everybody chill. This ain't usenet and its really easy to stop reading and go on and read something else. Go on, nothing to see here, stop milling around, go about your business, come on, come on.

is there a right "print"?

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