Is there a film/animal connection???

BWGirl · Jan 1, 2006

Hi Everyone!

Well, just had an interesting thing happen... someone recently said that they had made a decision to go from being a vegetarian to being a vegan. They said that having made this decision, they did not thing they would be able to continue to do traditional b&w film & darkroom work.

Is this true? Are there animal products in the new films and/or papers?? I'd hate to see this person give up the "good life" to become pixelated if there is no real reason. :rolleyes:

Paul Sorensen · Jan 1, 2006

I imagine that the gelatin that the emulsion is made of is made from an animal source. I have read that somewhere, and traditionally that is where all gelatin comes from.

removed account4 · Jan 1, 2006

BWGirl said:
Hi Everyone!

Well, just had an interesting thing happen... someone recently said that they had made a decision to go from being a vegetarian to being a vegan. They said that having made this decision, they did not thing they would be able to continue to do traditional b&w film & darkroom work.

Is this true? Are there animal products in the new films and/or papers?? I'd hate to see this person give up the "good life" to become pixelated if there is no real reason. :rolleyes:

hi there

your friend, as long as they enjoy salt, can make calotypes and salt prints

http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_forgotten.html
http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_saltprints.html

-john

gainer · Jan 1, 2006

The animals are not killed for the purpose of making film. Animals that die, as we all do, can be and traditionally are used for making glue and other products. You have heard the expression "headed for the glue factory" or something similar said of an old horse. If animals were never again to be slaughtered for any purpose, we would either have to find a synthetic gelatin that works or revert to another process. It would probably be digital.

BrianShaw · Jan 1, 2006

BWGirl said:
I'd hate to see this person give up the "good life" to become pixelated if there is no real reason.

My suggestion is to butt out and let your friend do whatevery he/she is going to do. Decisions like this are based on emotion more than logic.

My wife was a vegetarian while I remained a carnivor. We survived together... and still liked each other. We even liked each other after goingto a BBQ restaurant. She'd eat cole slaw and beans while I consumed a pound of pig or cow. There was a 30 minute waiting period before she'd kiss me again, but we both could live with that. Eventually my wife started eating meat again and things got easier, but our relationship never changed no matter what she chose to eat (or chose not to eat). I'll bet that wouldn't have been true if either one of us pestered each other about our decision.

Lead by example... keep shooting film and maybe your firend will return to the fold!

CharlieM · Jan 1, 2006

A lot of so-called 'gelatin' is now synthetic, rather than of animal origin, though something tells me it's still the animal stuff in b&w paper?

It would be interesting to know for sure, though, I've often wondered....(specially after BSE/CJD).

firecracker · Jan 1, 2006

I think there's also a type of grease been tested (and used) in older cameras, and that's from the mammal(s).

Helen B · Jan 1, 2006

Oddly enough, this topic has just cropped up on Dead Link Removed. I was among those who answered, though I'm sure that there are plenty of people here far more knowledgable that I am.

"The gelatin isn't just acting as a simple, inert, mechanical support/carrier for the silver halide. It plays a part chemically as well - affecting grain growth, emulsion speed, latent image stability, contrast and fogging during development, as well as reacting with products of development to form stain images and being able to be softened to allow chemicals to penetrate and hardened to be durable. Some of these properties may be due to trace impurities, some to the gelatin itself. Gelatin has a very complex structure.

An extract of black mustard seed has been found to have some of the special properties of gelatin, but I have no idea whether that has ever been used outside of a research lab. Gelatin is a natural polymer. Polyvinyl alcohol (PVA) has been used for photo paper, but it wasn't as good for the purpose as gelatin. Modified PVA and other man-made polymers have been studied extensively as gelatin substitutes - potential advantages are the reduction in the change in appearance between the wet and dry image, and the reduction in silver content. Polaroid's US Patent 4022623 is an example: "A photosensitive silver halide emulsion wherein the emulsion binder comprises a polyvinyl aminimide polymer or copolymer."

There's also been research into making binderless film (ie film that just has a layer of silver halide on it, without being in a carrier).

Happy New Year,
Helen

Photo Engineer · Jan 1, 2006

In addition to the thread mentioned by Helen above, there was another thread on PN with exactly the same question posed here as the starting question.

Rather than repeat everything there, I just suggest you go over there and read it if interested.

Regarding black mustard seeds, I'm afraid that is a myth. Mustard seeds contain rather active photo ingredients and can fog emulsions. In fact, cattle eating wild mustards (given the name from the nitrogen mustard chemicals in them) led to the original discovery of sulfur sensitization using allyl thiourea. So using the plain extract of mustard seeds would probably be quite detrimental.

PE

JHannon · Jan 1, 2006

So my Lizard skin covered Yashica Electro would offend vegans in two ways...

Lee Shively · Jan 2, 2006

I'm no chemist but I have always thought that since petroleum products are really just dinosaur remains, oil-based synthetic items and plastics are also derived from animals.

Lachlan Young · Jan 2, 2006

Most of the high quality inkjet Photo papers apparently also have gelatin in their coatings as well!

BWGirl · Jan 2, 2006

BrianShaw said:
My suggestion is to butt out and let your friend do whatevery he/she is going to do. Decisions like this are based on emotion more than logic.

...

Lead by example... keep shooting film and maybe your firend will return to the fold!

Hey Brian... I am not trying to disuade this person from what they've decided to do... I just really enjoy the work they've done in b&w and would hate to see them stop doing it. I'm just looking for some facts here. (shame on you for assuming )

Interesting that some of the inkjet papers may be "contaminated" with gelatin as well... hm... and never really thought about petroleum-based stuff.

Thanks for all the great info! As for photo.net... I never go there, so I did not know it was discussed there. (I'm just an APUG girl at heart).

john_s · Jan 2, 2006

"I take pictures like Jimmy Page, and I play guitar like Ansel Adams"

I don't know if AA could play guitar, but he was concert standard on the piano. It was to be his profession when he started taking pictures in order to publicise the movement to preserve the wildernesses that he loved.

fhovie · Jan 2, 2006

It would be pretty difficult to be a perfect vegan - most everything has some animal in it. many medications - clothing - photo products. - pretty sterile world.

BS67 · Jan 2, 2006

I don't think she will find anything vegan friendly in digital either. Better check to see if the AA filters that protect the digital sensor are gelatin. If they are gelatin she might be SOL.

Christopher Colley · Jan 2, 2006

http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19990121/02155085.html

you might find this interesting!

although being about 7 years old at this point it is interesting..

"Washington, Jan 20: Kodak, leading film and imaging company, buys 80 million pounds of cow skeleton yearly from abattoirs to produce gelatin from bone marrow for making film, the Wall Street Journal has reported."

"The stench of death rises from 16-ft high piles of cow bones chopped up into popcorn-size nuggets. Frank T Angelakis, known as the boneman or bonehead, perched on a catwalk, grabs a fistful, rubs the pieces between his fingers, and grimaces. "Not the best stuff," Angelakis said. "It is hard enough. Not porous. But it feels greasy."

MMfoto · Jan 2, 2006

I'm vegan, and at some point in the past this issue gave me some reason for pause. I don't justify my use of film and paper, but I have made the choice, in the light that I make so many other allowances on a daily basis.

The glue's I use at work have animal products in them; I don't quit my job. The bus I ride and the streets I use and pretty much everything else in the world took animal products to produce; I remain in society. No matter what your individual viewpoint is, we are a collective, we move together.

What would be the purpose of eliminating one of the most meaningful, creative, and personally rewarding parts of my life, to then turn a blind eye to all the other uses of animals that I, and everyone else, personally profit from.

I made the choice to continue using these products, and to make my work meaningful. I think it's important not be too extreme, and to also maintain awareness.

battra92 · Jan 2, 2006

It would be sad for someone to give up living their life for something like this. I am the equipment manager in my college photo club and being in college there are always a few going through the vegetarian or vegan stage. So it might be a good idea to keep my old trap shut about this.

Of course, as someone who comes from a family that used to own quite a few dozen head of cattle, I really would rather the bones be used for things like this after the cattle die and become steaks. I mean, what do they expect, little headstones for a dead cow?

But yeah, if it happens it happens. There really is no way to stop it and perhaps it's best to hope they grow out of it.

srs5694 · Jan 2, 2006

As a vegetarian, I feel justified in adding my $0.02. First, vegan or vegarian makes no difference to this choice. (For those who don't know, vegetarians don't eat animals; vegans are vegetarians who also don't eat any animal products, such as eggs or milk.) As gelatin is derived from dead animals, it is (or should be) just as offensive to vegetarians as to vegans, at least if the vegetarian/vegan choice is based on morality rather than, say, health advice from a physician.

Second, although I'm vegetarian, I continue to do photography. My reasoning (or excuse) is multifaceted:

As I read once in Vegetarian Times magazine: The animal products that go into film and paper are byproducts of slaughter; they aren't the main driving force of the economy of the cattle (or whatever) industry, but are the parts that are left over after the primary driving forces are through. As such, even if demand for gelatin were to disappear tomorrow, chances are no cattle would be spared.
The absolute quantities of gelatin that I consume through photography are pretty small compared to the amounts of meat that a typical American omnivore consumes. Thus, my contribution to the deaths of animals is pretty small, even if you base it on a mass-by-mass basis rather than by the driving economic forces.
As others have said, lots of other products, including digital imaging, rely on animal products to one extent or another. In particular, if gelatin is used in photo paper, I'd imagine that far more of it will be used in getting digital prints than in film. (This is just a guess, though; for all I know film has a far higher density of gelatin per square centimeter than paper, which would change the equation.) If, as was claimed above, it's also in inkjet photo paper, it's really a lose-lose scenario for anybody who wants to avoid all animal products, unless that person gives up both film and digital imaging.

I suppose a lot of this boils down to the question of how far to take one's convictions. To be really sure I wasn't contributing to animal slaughter, I'd need to investigate every product I buy, and a huge number do contain animal products. As a practical matter, it's necessary to draw the line somewhere. I personally choose to draw it at a place that means I can actually live life without spending every waking hour investigating the products I buy or avoiding products on the shelves even if I know they contain trace amounts of animal products. I avoid the meat counter in the supermarket and certain other products (I use soaps without animal fat, for instance). Beyond that, well, I'd prefer to buy products made entirely without dead animals, but a bigger priority for me is living in our society, which doesn't give a high priority to these issues.

BrianShaw · Jan 2, 2006

BWGirl said:
Hey Brian... I am not trying to disuade this person from what they've decided to do... (shame on you for assuming )

My apology for assuming!

fschifano · Jan 2, 2006

CharlieM said:
A lot of so-called 'gelatin' is now synthetic, rather than of animal origin, though something tells me it's still the animal stuff in b&w paper?

It would be interesting to know for sure, though, I've often wondered....(specially after BSE/CJD).

There is no good substitute for animal gelatin in film emulsions. I forget now if it's bone or hide gelatine that works best, but I do remember reading that Kodak did, and perhaps still does, run a very large gelatin processing plant specifically to produce gelatine of the quality needed for film production. Most likely not all film manufacturing companies run their own processing plants, but I'm pretty sure they all use animal based gelatin for film manufacturing.

CharlieM · Jan 2, 2006

fschifano said:
There is no good substitute for animal gelatin in film emulsions. I forget now if it's bone or hide gelatine that works best, but I do remember reading that Kodak did, and perhaps still does, run a very large gelatin processing plant specifically to produce gelatine of the quality needed for film production. Most likely not all film manufacturing companies run their own processing plants, but I'm pretty sure they all use animal based gelatin for film manufacturing.

Yes, I did mean photographic products generally as opposed to e.g. non-animal 'gelatin' you can get in jelly etc now.

A couple of these posts have brought home the reality though. As a vegetarian who wears leather shoes (and eats fish, so not really vege) in my own case it's not all logical. My own objection to eating meat (and farmed fish) is to do with animal husbandry which includes animal slaughter, so I don't see that this lets me off the hook here with gelatin (or shoes).

I'm just going to have to get that image from Upton Sinclair out of my mind...glad it's in inkjet paper too, though, so that let's me off one dilemma!

I do have a concern about the BSE/CJD question, though, specially if people are handling bones in such a fashion. I cannot believe (I hope) that would happen here after BSE. That guy could be asking for an eventual death sentence (as the suspicion is many infected carcasses still slip through the net...)

Gerald Koch · Jan 2, 2006

Some years ago Kodak experimented with trying to replace the gelatine in emulsions with other polymers. They were only partly sucessful. The gelatine not only acts as a mechanical support for the silver halide grains but also contributes to their sensitivity.

Photo Engineer · Jan 2, 2006

The problems with synthetic polymers are many. Here are a few:

1. How to 'support' silver grains in suspension (a process called peptization). Most polymers won't do this, so you have to synthesize a special polymer for making the emulsion. Otherwise, the silver halide just settles to the bottom of the container.

2. How to harden the polymer. This is easy with animal gelatin, but very hard with synthetics without introducing other problelms.

3. How to set up the polymer. Gelatin sets naturally when cooled allowing for high speed coating operations and smooth coatings. To date, no polymer has been able to mimic this property.

Therefore, no polymer alone has been able to replace gelatin. They can be added to gelatin as extenders, to supply some uniqe property such as flexibility to the coating, but they cannot be used alone. There are one or two unique exceptions in which a coating was made from an organic solvent instead of water, and in these cases, polymers were used because gelatin will not coat from solvents other than water.

Finally, the 'gel' in animal materials is different from the 'gel' in fruits. In fruits, the gelation comes from a mixture of pectin, fruit acids, and sugar forming the jelly like material. There are no long chain polymers involved as the main 'gel' except what may be present in the pectin. Animal materials are proteinaceous and their properties are inherent in their makeup.

PE

Is there a film/animal connection???

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