Is There a DIY Home Brew B&W Film Fixer

gone · Jul 30, 2014

I use citric acid or vinegar for my stop bath, and others seem to get good results using coffee for their developer. Is there a simple home brew B&W film fixer, or is this best left to the pros (Kodak, Ilford, etc)?

Dr Croubie · Jul 30, 2014

Seawater used to work back in the day?
Or apparently (there was a url link here which no longer exists)?

MartinP · Jul 30, 2014

The 'old fashioned' hypo is nowadays used in swimming pools isn't it? That might be a cheap source if the purity was good enough. However you would then need a lot of extra washing, over the modern rapid-fixers, and/or a hypo-clearing agent to get rid of the fixer.

The snag is that you only find out that your workaround was unsuccessful when your negs and prints are destroyed. A five litre container of fixer is pretty cheap compared to the smaller bottles, and you could always try C41 fixer too if the price was better.

Rick A · Jul 30, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Seawater used to work back in the day?
Or apparently (there was a url link here which no longer exists)?

Sea water is best for washing post hypo, but not a substitute. I don't remember which Kodak publication I read that in, but apparently sea water is better than fresh for washing prints and film.

RalphLambrecht · Jul 30, 2014

momus said:
I use citric acid or vinegar for my stop bath, and others seem to get good results using coffee for their developer. Is there a simple home brew B&W film fixer, or is this best left to the pros (Kodak, Ilford, etc)?

Thereare countless recipes available for any kind of processing chemical but, they all depend on similar raw chemicals as the professional brands

gone · Jul 30, 2014

Thanks. I'd better stick w/ the Kodak Rapid Fixer that I normally use. I was out of it, and wondered if there was something I could easily make at home.

Actually, Freestyle has some cheaper powdered fixers that I may try. They don't involve big shipping charges due to the hazardous materials shipping fees of the liquid fixers.

Xmas · Jul 30, 2014

sodium thiosulphate is cheap to ship you can add white vinegar for an acid fix or an ammonium salt for rapid etc.

Shipping water is expensive...

hypo clear is cheap as powder or you can get it as a home brew ingredient or use sea water...

google for formula, tea spoon for measure...

If you are careful it is archival.

With modern micro balance cheap and raw powder chemicals you can make D76 or ID68 easily,,,

RalphLambrecht · Jul 31, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
Thereare countless recipes available for any kind of processing chemical but, they all depend on similar raw chemicals as the professional brands

I forgot to add a list of basic formulae

Xmas · Jul 31, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I forgot to add a list of basic formulae

Ralph

Thanks a lot for that

But the D76 formula in the PDFs is for deep tank replinishment. For stock bottle or 1+1 or 1+3 you need to use D76a or D76d. (for the boric acid and borax)

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devD76_variants.htm

cause they are pH buffered to give repeatable results when stored longterm. The replinish formula is held constant by inspection and correction.

Ian will explain better than I - Ian?

Noel

removed account4 · Jul 31, 2014

there are many people that use a super saturated table salt solution
( a cylinder of salt not sure what it is called, and a gallon of water )
it wont completely fix your film but stabilize it well ...
search table salt fixer here on apug and you will find andy's experiment.

Steve Roberts · Jul 31, 2014

In my youth when times were hard I simply used sodium thiosulphate solution. The hypo was cheap as chips and the negs are fine forty years later. They'll likely see me out!
Steve

Truzi · Jul 31, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
I forgot to add a list of basic formulae

Finally... I believe this is the first proper plural of "formula" I've seen on this BBS since I've joined APUG.
Thanx.

Xmas · Jul 31, 2014

Steve Roberts said:
In my youth when times were hard I simply used sodium thiosulphate solution. The hypo was cheap as chips and the negs are fine forty years later. They'll likely see me out!
Steve

or if you must have Kodak

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Rudeofus · Jul 31, 2014

momus said:
Thanks. I'd better stick w/ the Kodak Rapid Fixer that I normally use. I was out of it, and wondered if there was something I could easily make at home.

Sodium Chloride brine might have worked wonders with Silver Chloride based emulsions, but it will be less than stellar with Silver Bromide, and it will not work at all with modern Silver Bromoiodide emulsions, at least as far as archival fixing is concerned.

There are really only a few compounds which work as fixers, and none of these are standard house hold chemicals. People claim that Sodium Thiosulfate is sold in swimming pool stores, but I have not seen it there so far (admittedly I didn't search very intensively). Likewise, Ammonium Thiosulfate is supposed to be a fertilizer, but I also didn't find it in places where one would get larger packs of fertilizer. The crazy part is, that rapid fixer is cheaper than the Ammonium Thiosulfate concentrate for self mixing it!

Unless you have special goals (like making a fixer that's twice as fast as rapid fixer), or enjoy messing around with raw chemicals, there is no point in home brewing fixer.

pdeeh · Jul 31, 2014

Truzi said:
Finally... I believe this is the first proper plural of "formula" I've seen on this BBS since I've joined APUG.
Thanx.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Truzi · Jul 31, 2014

pdeeh said:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I didn't check dates on all of those, but I did say since I've been here

cmacd123 · Jul 31, 2014

Unless you can find the Sodium Thiosulphate in bulk, and also don't use any of the T-max or Delta films. You are probably miles ahead to use just the Ilford or Kodak rapid Fixer. You NEED rapid fixer to deal with the t-grain films. I hate paying to ship water also, but the rapid stuff is based on the Amonium Thiosuplhate which is manufactured as a 50% solution as it is very difficult to disolve from Powder form.

Rudeofus · Jul 31, 2014

cmacd123, Ammonium Thiosulfate is commonly shipped as 60% solution, not 50%. As it just so happens, these 60% are about the same compound to water ratio as you would get with crystalline Sodium Thiosulfate ...

john_s · Jul 31, 2014

Rudeofus said:
................ People claim that Sodium Thiosulfate is sold in swimming pool stores, but I have not seen it there so far (admittedly I didn't search very intensively)..................

Its use for pools is that after superchlorination (to kill off resistant fauna and flora in pools) the thiosulphate reduces the chlorine level to comfortable levels for swimmers. The reason you don't see it in most pool shops is that the process is mandatory only for commercial pools. Owners of domestic pools need it less or not at all, and as chlorine is expensive, don't want a chemical that destroys it.

Also, some (most?) pool chemicals are rather impure. I had one labeled "83%" pure (aluminium sulphate for clarification) which is getting a bit low. Some of the impurities are insoluble, which might cause problems with photo use.

removed account4 · Jul 31, 2014

i sometimes look at pool supplies ( both in the us and france ) and have only found hypo once ..
i had to have bought in bulk ( 100lbs ) and it wasnt cheap... it actually cost about the same as
getting it through adorama or the formulary ..
besides i have about 55lbs of 85lbs of green coffee beans i purchased for developer that i can only roast up and use so . fast ...
i think they will be burried with me ... you know, they will put a bed of beans down before my cardboard casket
like they are laying a french drain ... if i was to be buried with hypo too it might develop me out like a monobath ...

yes i did find the hypo, but just in case someone reads this and thinks i am serious ..i am half joking, and no i am not poking fun at anyone but me ...

Xmas · Aug 1, 2014

cmacd123 said:
Unless you can find the Sodium Thiosulphate in bulk, and also don't use any of the T-max or Delta films. You are probably miles ahead to use just the Ilford or Kodak rapid Fixer. You NEED rapid fixer to deal with the t-grain films. I hate paying to ship water also, but the rapid stuff is based on the Amonium Thiosuplhate which is manufactured as a 50% solution as it is very difficult to disolve from Powder form.

Need ? sorry no you don't the plain hypo just takes about twice the time to clear with tabular grain film as cubical grain film.

If you fix by inspection you still get archival quality.

Note I can get the ammonium salt as easily but cannot tolerate the fumes.

eclarke · Aug 1, 2014

Fixer is an arcane, complicated issue..Buy good, rapid fix. I make all my chems myself but I use Hypam

Athiril · Aug 1, 2014

Rudeofus said:
Sodium Chloride brine might have worked wonders with Silver Chloride based emulsions, but it will be less than stellar with Silver Bromide, and it will not work at all with modern Silver Bromoiodide emulsions, at least as far as archival fixing is concerned.

There are really only a few compounds which work as fixers, and none of these are standard house hold chemicals. People claim that Sodium Thiosulfate is sold in swimming pool stores, but I have not seen it there so far (admittedly I didn't search very intensively). Likewise, Ammonium Thiosulfate is supposed to be a fertilizer, but I also didn't find it in places where one would get larger packs of fertilizer. The crazy part is, that rapid fixer is cheaper than the Ammonium Thiosulfate concentrate for self mixing it!

Unless you have special goals (like making a fixer that's twice as fast as rapid fixer), or enjoy messing around with raw chemicals, there is no point in home brewing fixer.

I've seen it in several places, and sodium thiosulphate is also sold cheaply in other places, like online, even ebay last I looked.

Thiocyanates are there as well which can be used at a lower/small rate.

Ammonium Chloride can be added for ammonium thiosulphate to formulate a rapid fixer.

Ammonium Chloride can be made from hydrochloric acid from a hardware store and aqueous ammonia, or bought cheaply.

Sodium Thiosulphate can be made from sodium sulphite (pool stores, home brew stores and aisles) and sulphur (gardening shops) heated in solution, iirc, the sulphur wont dissolve, but should begin to dissolve as it forms thiosulphate.

Rudeofus · Aug 2, 2014

Athiril said:
Sodium Thiosulphate can be made from sodium sulphite (pool stores, home brew stores and aisles) and sulphur (gardening shops) heated in solution, iirc, the sulphur wont dissolve, but should begin to dissolve as it forms thiosulphate.

The last time someone asked here whether the yellow gunk in a fixer bottle can be cleaned out, the general advice was that it is very hard and requires strong alkalis and whatever. Since this is essentially the same reaction (Na2SO3 + S ---> Na2S2O3), I have reasons to assume that Thiosulfate synthesis is a bit more complicated than juts mixing the two ingredients, especially if you want high yield. While Sodium Sulfite is considered a solvent, it will vastly decrease fixing speed if you add too much of it to Thiosulfate.

In other words: I would consider this a last ditch effort if everything else fails. Note, that most places where you can find pool stores, home brew stores and gardening shops, will have have some photo store nearby where you can at least mail order photo chemistry. By the time you have synthesized your Thiosulfate or stabilized your film in salt brine, you could have a fresh bottle of rapid fixer on your door steps.

cmacd123 · Aug 2, 2014

Rudeofus said:
cmacd123, Ammonium Thiosulfate is commonly shipped as 60% solution, not 50%. As it just so happens, these 60% are about the same compound to water ratio as you would get with crystalline Sodium Thiosulfate ...

50 or 60% I did not check, but what my furry mind was getting at is that if you buy the Ammonium Product it is basically the same shipping cost as just buying the Rapid Fixer. Which I assume starts with the TYHiosufate solution and has some acid and some preservative and other pixie dust added, then is shipped to your local store.

Like many other on this thread, I am really just saying that Home brew fixer is probably not worth it, or not likly to be a cost saving.

I am amused by your observation that the Crystals of Regular Hypo actually have that much equivalent water in them. No wonder most of the mix it yourself formulas use a relatively large volume of HYPO.

Is There a DIY Home Brew B&W Film Fixer

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