Is there a bleach for selenium toned prints?

[Marco Buonocore]

There are a variety of bleaches / reducers for an untoned silver gelatin print that work wonderfully well. Was there ever a bleach formulated to work on silver selenide - i.e., a fully selenium toned print?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I am unsure as to what you are asking. Do you want to removed a selenium toned image? Selenium toner is a direst toner bleaches are used for indirect toning.

 

[RobC]

I think he's asking if you can re-halogenise a selinium toned print. I don't know but you can always try and see what happens. I doubt it would work but I'm no chemist.

 

[GregW]

I just bleached a selenium toned negative. I had forgotten i'd toned it. It didn't lighten it much and turned it a brick red.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I just bleached a selenium toned negative. I had forgotten i'd toned it. It didn't lighten it much and turned it a brick red.

Selenium exists in two allotropic forms, a gray "metallic" form and a red form. This would explain the red color. The red form is used to make red rubber as in hot water bottles.

I suspected that the bleach would leave elemental selenium in the emulsion but never expected the red form.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

I wasn't clear enough, apologies.

I was wondering if there was a Farmer's Reducer equivalent for a selenium toned print. For cosmetic lightening of an area, for example.

What GregW is saying has occurred with me; using a strong rehalogenating bleach on a selenium toned prints leaves a red coloured image. I think Tim Rudman discusses it in his toning book.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Any concerns about print density are adjusted before toning. Therefore a print designed to be toned will have a somewhat different density from one that is not intended to be toned. Just how much difference is determined by the choice of toner and the extent of toning. This is something that is learned with practice.

A toned print is a different thing than a usual silver print. There are different chemistries involved. For lightening a portion of a print there is always dodging of the area or bleaching before toning.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Thanks, Gerald.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Marco, I think the answer specific to your question is since selenium toners do not tone the silver completely you may use Farmer's Reducer to bleach the silver that still exists in the highlights, although you will most likely encounter a tonal shift in the areas you apply the bleach. I don't think there is anything usable that will bleach the actual selenium itself.

 

[john_s]

I just bleached a selenium toned negative. I had forgotten i'd toned it. It didn't lighten it much and turned it a brick red.

This can be a very beautiful tone. It used to be called Chinese toning and if you do a Tim Rudman toning workshop he has a marvelous example.

There is a post on the old pure-silver website. Link here.

https://www.tundraware.com/pipermail/pure-silver/2001-September/039122.html

 

[pentaxuser]

This can be a very beautiful tone. It used to be called Chinese toning and if you do a Tim Rudman toning workshop he has a marvelous example.

There is a post on the old pure-silver website. Link here.

https://www.tundraware.com/pipermail/pure-silver/2001-September/039122.html

Google Chrome warns me against opening the tundraware site which may or may not be a security risk. I'd like to look at this picture however so is there any other way of linking to it?

Anyone else experience this warning?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Hatchetman]

Selenium toning can be kind of tricky. Inital print should be a touch lighter than what you visualize the final to look like. A "touch" is the hard part.....

 

[Truzi]

Google Chrome warns me against opening the tundraware site which may or may not be a security risk. I'd like to look at this picture however so is there any other way of linking to it?

Anyone else experience this warning?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I get a warning. Iceweasel tell me:

"www.tundraware.com uses an invalid security certificate.
The certificate is not trusted because it is self-signed.
(Error code: sec_error_unknown_issuer)

I'm not worried about it.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Google Chrome warns me against opening the tundraware site which may or may not be a security risk. I'd like to look at this picture however so is there any other way of linking to it?

Anyone else experience this warning?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I get a warning too so I passed on it. Bad Certificate.

 

[RobC]

tundraware is safe. But for those of you who are worried, the posting is as follows:

From: "tim rudman"
Subject: Re: "Chinese" prints, was: pseudolith printing
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:05:27 +0100
I think I posted details of this once before Stane, (but it might have been
elsewhere)
I will cut and paste below a snippet from an article I wrote for PAI a
couple of years ago on Se toning (saves me some typing;-) )
Tim
________________ :-
SELENIUM-TO-BLEACH TECHNIQUES
It is perhaps less well known that bleaching baths can be used not only
before selenium toning, but also afterwards.
We know that selenium toner is an archival agent and produces a highly
stable image which is resistant to pollutants and to other chemical agents.
This after all is the basis for dual and multiple toning procedures, as well
as archival treatments. Whereas the aggressive dichromate bleach can attack
selenium, and is used as an archival treatment challenge test because of
this, the more restrained ferricyanide/bromide bleaches found in sepia
toning kits makes little impact on sodium selenide.
Their use after selenium toning relies on the fact that selenium toned
prints will normally still have some black silver remaining in the
emulsion - particularly with cold tone or neutral papers. These are mostly
in the largest (darkest and 'coldest') grains, which are less effected by
selenium and may not all be converted to silver selenide. This may appear
contradictory, given our observation that selenium always starts toning in
the darkest tones first. However, it is easily demonstrated by bleaching
away these silver halides. This removes the 'masking' effect they have, to
reveal the reddish colours of the selenium previously camouflaged by the
large black silver grains.
The more finely divided silver chloride and iodide in warm tone papers are
converted by selenium much more readily, and this accounts for their
readiness to change colour when selenium toned. Bleaching the colder tone
papers is another way of causing cold papers to mimic warm emulsions.
In order to do this, the print may need to be overexposed - normally by
quarter to half a stop, depending on the extent of the bleaching (and
toning) intended. It should be fully developed and usually fully toned, the
latter taking longer than is commonly appreciated and is typically in the
order of 10 to 15 minutes in a fresh 1+5 solution. If in doubt, longer
rather than shorter toning times are preferable. This ensures that the
highlights are fully toned and protected against bleaching. Unlike the case
where an untoned print is bleached, most of the density loss seen in these
fully toned bleached prints occurs in the darker values. Prints that are
partially toned will bleach more readily and may need more exposure
compensation - particularly to protect the incompletely toned highlights.
The ferricyanide/bromide bleach should be used at full strength (neat) and
depending on the paper may take several minutes to show its effect in the
form of a reddish colour appearing. If the effect is patchy, the print may
sometimes be rescued if it is washed and redeveloped and then returned after
another wash to the bleach. When the desired effect is reached, the print
should be refixed to remove the bleached halides, and then given the final
wash. As often is the case a variable colour change may occur both on fixing
and on drying. This is an emulsion specific effect.
This process is easier to do than to describe, as there are so many
variables. In order to get a feel for what is possible, make a series of
prints at normal, +1/4, and +1/2 stop exposures, and then bleach one of each
for a series of different times, keeping notes. Colours do vary as expected
with different emulsions, 'cold' RC papers giving particularly good results.
Multigrade 1V will change from a purple-black to red. Slightly different
results can be obtained by incomplete toning and as described, such prints
are more susceptible to bleaching.
'CHINESE' PRINTS
Much work on the above technique has been done by Liam Lawless, who together
with China Hamilton - from whom this process takes its name - produced this
variation by substituting ferricyanide bleach with iodine. Proprietary
'Boots' iodine tincture may be used, or an iodine reducer sold for
photographic use, or made up from the formula below.
The initial reaction to immersing a print in iodine is likely to be one of
shock, for iodine stains everything, including the print. This stain lifts
when the print is transferred to the fixer however, and reveals reddish
colours, which change with the time in the fixer. The print can be removed
and washed at any stage and the slower 'hypo' may be easier to control than
a rapid ammonium thiosulphate fixer. Attractive split tone effects can be
produced by varying the time in the iodine or in the fixer. Once again,
prints generally have to be overexposed by up to 1/2 a stop for best results.
Combination techniques using both ferricyanide and iodine may produce
stronger colours if required. The permutations here are considerable and
bear some experimentation.

Iodine bleach formula:

Methylated spirits 100.0mls
Iodine crystals as much as will dissolve
Dilute 1+10 for use.

Tim R
----- Original Message -----
From: Stane Kocar
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Selenium/bleach+"Chinese" prints, was: pseudolith printing

>
> > A number of points here:
> > The bleach back after split selenium toning can produce various warm
hues
> in
> > the untoned mid &/or high values without affecting the toned low values
> > (much). The colour of the hues varies with different papers, and again
(as
> > discussed under pseudo lith prints) may shift on refixing.
> >
> > The effect is only superficially like lith printing. It can be very
> > attractive in its own right though - but notably it lacks the ability to
> > print soft in the highlights and hard in the shadows, which is a
property
> of
> > lith printing. The ability to print G5 or 6 in shadow areas whilst
> producing
> > soft creamy G.0 HLs can be wonderful.
> >
> > There is another 'bleach after selenium' technique which is quite
> different
> > to the one above and is sometimes referred to as 'Chinese prints' after
> > China Hamilton who is credited with it. It works well on cold tone
papers,
> > RCs are often good too. The print is slightly overexposed, fully
developed
> > and very fully selenium toned - say 1+5 for 15 mins, time not critical
as
> > long as enough to ensure toning right up through highlights. The print
is
> > then bleached in iodine bleach. A very strong ferri/bromide bleach (eg
> neat)
> > can give a similar effect but less interesting. A combination of the two
> can
> > be even better.
> >
> > I can post details if anybody wants.
> >
>
> Thank you Tim and Richard for sharing your great knowledge with us (and
all
> others).
>
> Of course, let post the details, I am interested.
>
> Stane Kocar
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Sirius Glass]

Thanks RobC

 

[john_s]

tundraware used to be the hosting site for the pure-silver email based service to which I subscribed for years. It's now at freelists.org, so the same post should be findable there, along with LOTS of other stuff.

 

[RobC]

tundraware used to be the hosting site for the pure-silver email based service to which I subscribed for years. It's now at freelists.org, so the same post should be findable there, along with LOTS of other stuff.

Wrong. The freelist site does not contain the old archives. Freelist started when the old site stopped. I have them but they are in .mbx format which is pretty much useless these days unless you have an old version of Eudora like I do.

If enough people want them I can convert them .eml format and post them somewhere. Enough means at least 20 people. Anyone can download the archives from the old tundraware site and convert them with one of the freely avialable converters.

 

[RobC]

I made pure-silver archive files available in easily useable format. See...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Roger Cole]

I get a warning. Iceweasel tell me:


I'm not worried about it.

Me either. I added an exception and went to the page.

But the photo isn't there so if you are trying to see what it looks like, don't bother.