Is the Leica an "Investment?"

semi-ambivalent · Dec 24, 2012

Mainecoonmaniac said:
tulip craze.

Selling your Leica to pay off debt will be a waste if you let the debt come back. But if it's part of a plan to get out of debt permanently then, sure, sell it; 'conversation starter' is not a particularly efficient use of your resources.

Leicas might or might not appreciate in value but I'll bet they depreciate a lot slower than 'millionaire books'.

s-a

E. von Hoegh · Dec 24, 2012

thedancefloor said:
So I've been listening to these audio books by Thomas Stanley about Millionaires. And they're really influencing me. He says that the people who are actually wealthy, don't buy luxury items and that if you do, you will never save enough to be a real millionaire.

I have a Leica M6 Classic, with Canadian 35 Summicron version 4. And one of the reasons why I bought this camera was so that I could chit chat with passersby about it. I've been asked "Is that a Leica?" at least fifty times now, and it was fun, I've even made some friends. It's an awesome camera and I love it. But I could probably sell it for a few thousand and pay down my credit card.

Does a Leica appreciate at 12% (my Visa interest rate)? I'm guessing probably not.

Is there anyone else, so crazy as to have bought a Leica on credit!?

If you want to become a millionaire, just do what Thomas Stanley did. Sell a worthless book.

pbromaghin · Dec 24, 2012

If you borrow to buy a camera, you'll never be a millionaire. You have been misinterpreting what you read. The millionaire next door doesn't blow money on useless luxury, but he most certainly does buy high quality and he purposely saves up the money to buy it with cash.

Sirius Glass · Dec 24, 2012

semi-ambivalent said:
Selling your Leica to pay off debt will be a waste if you let the debt come back. But if it's part of a plan to get out of debt permanently then, sure, sell it; 'conversation starter' is not a particularly efficient use of your resources.

The only way I know to permanently get out of debt is to stop living. I am not ready to go to that extreme.

pbromaghin · Dec 24, 2012

It's easier than you think, Sirius. The only debt we have ever had is a home mortgage, and that will be gone in 5 years. Life is a lot easier if you aren't always paying for what you did last year. While it's best to never go there in the first place, to get out of debt, all you have to do is go through 6 mos or a year of pain and the rest of your life will be smooth sailing.

Do it in baby steps: http://www.daveramsey.com/new/baby-steps/

Jim Jones · Dec 24, 2012

There is money to be made in buying Leicas if you find a real steal at a garage sale or live auction, but not by buying from knowledgeable dealers. There is even less chance of making money when buying on credit. My Leica M4 body cost about $200 overseas in 1970 when my base pay was $4 an hour. Now it might be worth somewhat more after 42 years of hard service. I consider it a bargain for the many thousands of photos taken with it, but certainly not for its intrinsic value.

Going into debt to make money might work for a very few people who really know what they are doing, but not for most of us. There are a lot of sharp people and corporations in trouble because they thought (or hoped) that they knew enough to beat the few experts at that game. Staying out of debt is safer and wiser. Constant studying will help one to recognize a true bargain on the rare occasions when they are found.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 24, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
The only way I know to permanently get out of debt is to stop living. I am not ready to go to that extreme.

I've never had debt. Ever. 52 years old. The only time I use a credit card is to order something; it's paid off at the end of the month. No personal loans, never a car loan; if I can't pay for it in cash I can't afford it.

Sirius Glass · Dec 24, 2012

E. von Hoegh said:
I've never had debt. Ever. 52 years old. The only time I use a credit card is to order something; it's paid off at the end of the month. No personal loans, never a car loan; if I can't pay for it in cash I can't afford it.

That is ok if you never want to own a home or pay for college for your childern. I was being sirius not serious when I posted that siriusly.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 24, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
That is ok if you never want to own a home or pay for college for your childern. I was being sirius not serious when I posted that siriusly.

\

No children, therefore no college expenses. I own 1/2 of a home so far.

Sirius Glass · Dec 24, 2012

Then your plan will not work for many people. A boat is a hole in the water that one fills with money. Children can have the same affect.

pbromaghin · Dec 24, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
That is ok if you never want to own a home or pay for college for your childern. I was being sirius not serious when I posted that siriusly.

Actually, it's about the best way to be able to own a home and pay for college. Keep borrowing and only the banker gets rich.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 24, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
Then your plan will not work for many people. A boat is a hole in the water that one fills with money. Children can have the same affect.

Why on earth would I want to have children?

Have you looked around lately?

pbromaghin · Dec 24, 2012

Yes, let's take a look around. Who would want to bring children into the world as it is? After all, the U.N. 1990 poverty goal for 2015 was met in 2008. The world economy grew 6% in the last 7 years, but fossil fuel consumption went down by 4%. Life expectancy in Africa is 5 years longer than it was 10 years ago. The last decade had fewer war deaths than any decade in the 20th century.

Who would ever want to bring children into the world as it was in 1945? Oh, right. My sister was born in 1946.

Who would ever want to bring children into the world as it was in 1916?. Oh, right. My parents were both born in 1917.

Sirius Glass · Dec 24, 2012

E. von Hoegh said:
Why on earth would I want to have children?

Have you looked around lately?

When you are ready to be put in a nursing home, your children decide where you go and they handle the paperwork.

sangetsu · Dec 24, 2012

jovo said:
Oh really? Let me know when you see Donald Trump shopping in Walmart Saving, unless you earn a great deal and spend almost nothing, is NOT the way to become a millionaire. This I know from experience!!! LOL!!!

Yes, my uncle started with nothing back in 1962, and after 50 years of working 12 hours a day, often 6 days a week, he is a millionaire. He sent all of his kids to university (he couldn't afford such an education for himself), and he eventually built a nice house for his wife. But he has never owned a new car, he wears a Timex watch, and yes, he does shop at Walmart. He would never buy a Leica camera, no doubt he was a little heartbroken when he could no longer get film for his old Polaroid Land camera. It's interesting that many of his employees own new cars, and wear nicer clothes and watches, but then again, they will never become millionaires.

Most millionaires in America are small business people, not bankers, doctors, or lawyers, and becoming a successful small businessperson requires a lot of sacrifice and risk. These people generally don't part with their money for frivolous things, and Leicas are certainly frivolities.

That said, I own, and have owned many Leicas, and I have always managed to sell them for at least a small profit. In my case, Leica cameras have been good investments.

Dismayed · Dec 24, 2012

jovo said:
Oh really? Let me know when you see Donald Trump shopping in Walmart Saving, unless you earn a great deal and spend almost nothing, is NOT the way to become a millionaire. This I know from experience!!! LOL!!!

Trump was born a millionaire. His father was wealthy.

pbromaghin · Dec 24, 2012

jovo said:
Oh really? Let me know when you see Donald Trump shopping in Walmart Saving, unless you earn a great deal and spend almost nothing, is NOT the way to become a millionaire. This I know from experience!!! LOL!!!

Really? That's how we did it.

summicron1 · Dec 25, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
That is ok if you never want to own a home or pay for college for your childern. I was being sirius not serious when I posted that siriusly.

um ... own our own home, sent one kid through college and the other through professional training AND are saving college funds for the grand kids.

No home debt, no credit card debt, cars both paid for and haven't bought a car on time in 30 years. We bought the house on a 15 year mortgage and paid it off in 12 and haven't looked back.

you CAN do it. You just have to live like those millionaires a few others have described -- never buy new cars, use a timex watch, eschew frivolities (except Leicas) and never waste money on cable TV or "smart" phones that cost you $150 a month.

oh yeah, and I'm a journalist, and my wife, when I married her, was a welfare mother.

waynecrider · Dec 25, 2012

thedancefloor said:
Thanks for the comments everyone. I think I will sell it, and come back to it, when I have nothing better to buy with all my millions.

The thing has held its value for sure. The lens alone has increased in value about $500 in 3 years. But maybe this craziness is over?

Yeah the lenses seem to have done better in some respects then the bodies in any brand. I remember when FD lens prices (and others) were falling till 4/3rd's cameras came out and adapters showed up. Then every great lens in the Pentax, Minolta and FD lineup's started going up. Leica glass seems to have weathered the storm better. I'd say keep the glass, sell the body and buy a Bessa if you like rangefinders. But David's comment above about shooting is really the way to go.

benjiboy · Dec 25, 2012

If I wanted to invest my money I certainly wouldn't buy photographic equipment with it.

cepwin · Dec 25, 2012

That's a great story about your Uncle! What an amazing gentleman. Just FYI he *can* get film for his polaroid land camera unless it's one of the very old ones that takes roll film. Fuji makes the pull-apart film and the Impossible project makes the pop out (integrated?) film. It's folks like your Uncle is what makes me so angry when politicians say that they "didn't build that" or want to raise taxes on them.

sangetsu said:
Yes, my uncle started with nothing back in 1962, and after 50 years of working 12 hours a day, often 6 days a week, he is a millionaire. He sent all of his kids to university (he couldn't afford such an education for himself), and he eventually built a nice house for his wife. But he has never owned a new car, he wears a Timex watch, and yes, he does shop at Walmart. He would never buy a Leica camera, no doubt he was a little heartbroken when he could no longer get film for his old Polaroid Land camera. It's interesting that many of his employees own new cars, and wear nicer clothes and watches, but then again, they will never become millionaires.

Most millionaires in America are small business people, not bankers, doctors, or lawyers, and becoming a successful small businessperson requires a lot of sacrifice and risk. These people generally don't part with their money for frivolous things, and Leicas are certainly frivolities.

That said, I own, and have owned many Leicas, and I have always managed to sell them for at least a small profit. In my case, Leica cameras have been good investments.

Yashinoff · Dec 26, 2012

9 __ 9

Pumalite · Dec 27, 2012

No.
One becomes wealthy by investing his money, but not on Leicas or any such thing.

pbromaghin · Dec 27, 2012

Pretend you're poorer than you are, save your money, then invest it. Don't do anything stupid, like buying a new car with a loan. Never borrow a nickle for anything other than a home. You will end up wealthy.

In the past I've posted links to different pages of Dave Ramsey's website because he teaches a pattern of behavior that will enevitably result in you dying quite wealthy and provide a solid financial base for your children, and maybe even your grandchildren. People may be turned off by his emphasis on Christianity. Having grown up in a god-fearing home, but being extremely backslid, I am completely comfortable around those people. While he claims to be teaching Christian principles of personal finance, it's really more Old Testament Isrealite - how the Jews survived thousands of years in a hostile environment. I am enthusiastic about him because my wife (who can squeeze a nickel until the indian is riding that buffalo) and I operated his plan for years before he did. We learned it from our parents. It works. I stumbled on his radio show one day and heard a man telling people to live the way we lived, a way we had been ridiculed for. Funny, but nobody ridicules any more us as we close in on a million dollar net worth.

Jim Jones · Dec 27, 2012

Income isn't what makes people wealthy as much as outgo keeps them from saving money. We tend to keep up with the Jonses. As an ancient Jones, I try to make that easy, but people persist in wasting money on large screen TVs, cell phones with cameras and GPS, video games, dinners out, and other money sponges. Most of these don't enhance the quality of life, but they do keep us from really living. Henry Thoreau may have overdone the basic lifestyle at Walden Pond, but it certainly beat going into debt for unnecessary baggage. Many Americans learned how to make do with nearly nothing in the 1930s. It was a tough time, but it made tough people who could teach their descendants much.

Is the Leica an "Investment?"

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