Is 'Sunny-16' Just a Bad Joke?

Poco · Apr 18, 2005

"that no one would notice that the sun was steadily becoming dimmer."

Actually, that's no joke. More authoritative sources are no doubt out there, but this explains it good enough:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s1013859.htm

If we've seen a 15% - 20% dimming since the formulation of the sunny 16 rule, that has to have an effect.

TPPhotog · Apr 18, 2005

Along the same lines as the sunny-16 have you seen the The Ultimate Exposure Computer?

Max Power · Apr 18, 2005

Wow!
I'm really glad that I started this topic. Not only am I learning a good deal, but the question seems to have started a really interesting discussion.

After carefully reading all of the posts, I have come to two basic 'intermediate' conclusions.

Firstly, over the last few months I have been deeply involved in film testing with both APX100 and Delta-400 and zeroing in on EIs and soup times for my equipment (camera, meter, enlarger). This would almost certainly have moved my variables along a bit.

Secondly, I live in Quebec City...Perhaps this alone puts 'sunny-16' into question, especially in the spring, autumn and winter.

Keep it coming!

Cheers,
Kent

modafoto · Apr 18, 2005

Max Power said:
Is 'sunny-16' a bad joke? Ought it really be 'sunny-11'? :confused:

In a danish photo book the chapter on exposure lists a lot of methods and one of them is called "Blænde 11-reglen" which can be translated into "The rule of f/11". It says that you should shoot at 1/(film speed) and f/11 in sunny conditions. So some mean that it should be "sunny 11".

As it is said earlier in the thread it is f/11 in the northern regions (hence Denmark) and f/16 down south.

I haven't done the testing myself yet, but will give it a try when I am out shooting one day.

Morten

127 · Apr 18, 2005

David Henderson said:
But why bother- using a meter doesn't take much, if any more time than assessing all the factors to use Sunny 16 optimally

Because it's always good to THINK about what you're doing.

All my exposures are sunny-16. Occasionally I get the meter out and play "beat the machine", just to check my judgement, or deal with something tricky. With a few weeks practice it's good to within a stop. I go out, and I look at the light, and think about what it's doing. That doesn't make me better than anyone else, but it does make me better than I would be if I didn't do it.

In the UK I'd say 16 is good if there is absolutly no cloud or haze. The slightest amount, and you need to go f/11. f/8 it you could descibe it as cloudy. f/5.6 is overcast. (Add a stop for light shadow, two for heavier shadow.)

Also remember that 125th is faster than 100th so if you rate your film at 100, you need to err on the side of giving it more.

What's the worst that's going to happen - you're a stop out... I've had some poor exposures but never anything I couldn't print. I did FAR worse on some early outings when I followed the meter slavishly - I had no idea if it was giving me good info.

Of course you don't NEED to think about exposure, but then there are plenty people telling us that with photoshop you don't need to worry about composition either.

Ian

David Henderson · Apr 18, 2005

Charles. I think you're exaggerating my point of view. I'm not uninterested in understanding the nuances of highlight and shadow, and if you watched me work you'd realise that I'm very careful about exposure. I choose to get my information in a different way- using multiple readings from a one degree spotmeter - in a process that allows me to think about what different parts of my scene will look like if I expose in a certain way.

But the point is that I prefer to measure these variations not try to guess them. You don't learn more about image-making by doing it without a meter in my view, and you don't learn it easier. All you do is get equivalent inputs a different way. And I guess I'd argue that the interpretation of Sunny 16 seems kind of variable depending on conditions so isn't it better to measure than to judge? The fact that I use a meter doesn't force me to blindly use whatever it tells me but at least I can have confidence in the start-points for my exposure assessments.

To my mind the biggest factor behind the photographs I prefer to make is imagination. It is far more important than being supremely technically skilled and if I could pay for an extra dose of something then it would be imagination every time. So as you might expect I'm a lot less damning of "artists" who photograph without a full technical appreciation or historical perspective than you might be- if their work is imaginative. If I'm clumsy on exposures (which as I say, I'm not), the price I pay is bracketing. If I'm short on imagination, the price I pay is mediocrity.

Interestingly there's a guy I photograph with quite a bit who uses the matrix metering/automatic setting of his Pentax 645n for colour landscapes. He thinks I'm a bit slow and anal with my spotmeter and mental calculations. Nearly all the time his exposures look just like mine. Its about as far from Sunny 16 as you can get, but it works.

Ed Sukach · Apr 18, 2005

The "Sunny 16 Rule" is a pretty good rule of thumb - that is surprisingly accurate, most - or some - of the time. You can test this by placing an incident sphere on a decent exposure meter and taking readings over time.

Is "Sunny 16" accurate and stable enough to be used as a standard for photometer - exposure meter calibration? No. Simply, no.
There are many factors that will affect the amount of light, even from a clear sky at noon and at 40 degrees North Latitude... The amount of dust and moisture in the air, the air temperature (colder air will be more dense and absorb more light) ... the time of year - the angle of the sun with be of interest...

In re-reading this ... the idea of taking incident readings of light, at different times of the day, at different times of the year, and in different weather conditions can be a useful learning tool.

anyte · Apr 18, 2005

I suppose my answer doesn't really count since I don't develop my own prints, but regardless I seem to get better results working off the sunny 16 rule. Mind you, I have done a lot of reading and have put considerable thought and experimentation into the process. I can't walk out the door and get a perfect exposure using sunny 16, but then again, I can't walk out the door and get perfect exposure using a meter either, but I do get more satisfying results in my trials with sunny 16. I imagine though, that in time and with further use, using sunny 16 will come more naturally and I will get increasingly better results.

waynecrider · Apr 18, 2005

Not reading the whole thread, my question would be, what subject matter were you shooting?

Last week when in Sedona AZ I was using my Minolta spot meter to get a reading off a clear north sky at high noon and got a reading of F4.8 @ 125th for a 100 ISO setting. I didn't have my gray card with me, but when I got home I checked the meter and it read fine. Of course I didn't believe it and shot what I thought it should be. I haven't gotten the prints back but I'm sure I exposed correctly. I did some test after getting home, with a 1-2 o'clock sun taking the gray card and metering with it face up, face towards the camera at various angles and in front of various subject matter and then compared the subject matter reading to the gray card reading for a reminder of the reflectance of various subject matter. Essentially I feel that you have to use your brain as much or even more then relying on a meter as they can just be flat out wrong, and it may just be that their cold, hot, need batteries or there's too wide of a light range for the film and you make a mistake. A little work with a gray card, your developer (if b&w) and different sun conditions, as well as exploring various angles to the sun goes a long way to educating one to what to expect. My attitude is to spend a roll on testing every once in awhile both by using a meter and an educated guess and remind yourself what different subject matter reflects for your E.I. Familiarity breeds better exposures. Especially for me when I think but can't remember what I ate for dinner two nights ago.

Dave Miller · Apr 18, 2005

I think 127 has hit the point of this “rule”. If you haven’t got an exposure meter, or it’s broke, you can still take pictures if you understand the rule. No knowledge equals no pictures in such a situation. We seem to be getting a little heated over an unnecessary level of accuracy. I didn’t own an exposure meter until 10 years into this hobby when I brought a Pentax Spotmatic, which happened to have one built in. It took quite a while before I learned to trust it more than the table inside the film box!!

glennfromwy · Apr 18, 2005

Not that this means much, but no one has mentioned that the info on the film box normally dictates f:16 for sand/water and snow in bright sun. Thus, the sunny 11 rule would seem logical. I have a bunch of old folders to try out. I want to just focus and shoot, without bothering with my spot meter, etc. I will use the sunny xx rule and see what happens. I can screw things up just as well with a meter, so what's to lose?

Nick Zentena · Apr 18, 2005

Check the speed for that beach shot. Fuji does that but they double the speed. So one stop opened on the aperture and one stop faster on the shutter.

Ed Sukach · Apr 18, 2005

waynecrider said:
Last week when in Sedona AZ I was using my Minolta spot meter to get a reading off a clear north sky at high noon and got a reading of F4.8 @ 125th for a 100 ISO setting.

I'm curious ... just how did you "meter off a clear north sky" with a spot meter?
Where did you point the meter?

Charles Webb · Apr 18, 2005

David, I do not feel that I have exagerated any thing, if you are offended by my remarks and comments I am sorry. I pretty much repeated your own words. Nothing I have written was intended to cause any one discomfort or to say what they are now or have been doing is wrong. Having spent much time in class rooms and in the field with todays students I believe I gave a fair assessment of many of and perhaps the majority of them. No where in my comments doe's the word guess appear. I didn't even say educated guess, I said read, judge, interpret etc. I am sorry (second time I have said this) that my support of another way to do something, has so inflamed you.
My only guess is that my comments hit a sore spot with you somehow and you are striking at the messenger instead of understand or trying to understanding the message.

I would be a bit concerned however if my exposures made with a spot metering matched exactly a friends exposures made with an in camera meter! Food for thought?

This is my last entry/comment on what has become in the last few years the "Sunny f16, F11 or even f8 rule". Back up your good exposures by putting them in the gallery! Anybody else offended by my remarks I apologize to you too.

Graeme Hird · Apr 19, 2005

The Sunny 16 rule is definitely a joke. No serious landscape photographer would be shooting in the middle of the day, which is the only time the rule works well.

Sunny 16 is for fairweather photographers! Real Photographers wouldn't be caught dead in anything brighter than EV10.

Whenever the light is at its best (most dramatic), its hard to get a better exposure than by interpreting a well calibrated meter's reading.

Cheers,
Graeme

David Henderson · Apr 19, 2005

Charles . I have not been and am not offended in any way. As far as I'm concerned this is an interesting discussion not an argument, and people who bring different approaches and experience to the party should be able to state and defend those points of view. As far as I can see that's all thats happened on this thread.

Incidentally I'm not remotely surprised or concerned that the bulk of landscape photographs someone makes with an in-camera meter are similar to those I make using a spot meter. The matrix metering used by Pentax and others uses multiple readings across the scene and assesses these to produce an exposure. That's not too far from the process I use manually except that the Pentax uses the same spots all the time whereas I choose according to the scene. When I choose to render the scene differently from how it seems, then clearly the exposures are different. When exposures are very difficult, then mine tend to be different from those on the Pentax, and I would expect that whilst indicating also that the latter's metering is very good indeed.

Ole · Apr 19, 2005

Graeme Hird said:
The Sunny 16 rule is definitely a joke. No serious landscape photographer would be shooting in the middle of the day, which is the only time the rule works well.

Sunny 16 is for fairweather photographers! Real Photographers wouldn't be caught dead in anything brighter than EV10.

Whenever the light is at its best (most dramatic), its hard to get a better exposure than by interpreting a well calibrated meter's reading.

Cheers,
Graeme

Graeme, once again you're on the wrong side of the planet. Here at 60° North we get the best light around noon - incidentally also the best time for fishing, contrary to all traditional advice.

Graeme Hird · Apr 19, 2005

Ole said:
Graeme, once again you're on the wrong side of the planet. Here at 60° North we get the best light around noon - incidentally also the best time for fishing, contrary to all traditional advice.

I'm on the wrong side of the planet? I don't think so ...

I'm only 31° south and for me the best light for my type of photography happens 30 minutes either side of sunset and sunrise.

However, the fishing is terrible at all times of the day and night (there's no water :rolleyes: ) .

Cheers,

Nick Zentena · Apr 19, 2005

Graeme Hird said:
Sunny 16 is for fairweather photographers! Real Photographers wouldn't be caught dead in anything brighter than EV10.

If you're using 25ASA film Sunny 16 goes down to EV 8.(?). EV10?? Yikes have to use high speed film for that -)

MurrayMinchin · Apr 21, 2005

I don't know how many degree's north I am on the planet, but in the winter at mid day, gravel casts a long shadow.

Several years ago I hiked up to a waterfall outside of Banff only to find my spotmeters battery was dead. I remembered from school how I was taught the rule; on a sunny day, at noon, with the sun at your back, it's f16 at whatever shutter speed is closest to your films ASA. From there you guesstimate as best you can how much more to open up for the conditions you're in. Every negative from that day is easily printable!

Without the f16 rule I would have missed the light, and the images.

Murray

titrisol · Apr 21, 2005

But it works.....
Sunny 16 was invented so that you sould guesstimate easily your exposure if you didn;t have a meter, your batteries went dead, or you had a brownie-box. Due to tthe latitude of film a 1 stop + or - rendered printable negatives and recognizable images.

I have used it a lot, specially with classics and no lightmeter. Spotmeters are cumbersome if you are not carrying 300lbs of equipment with you.

Graeme Hird said:
The Sunny 16 rule is definitely a joke. No serious landscape photographer would be shooting in the middle of the day, which is the only time the rule works well.

Sunny 16 is for fairweather photographers! Real Photographers wouldn't be caught dead in anything brighter than EV10.

Whenever the light is at its best (most dramatic), its hard to get a better exposure than by interpreting a well calibrated meter's reading.

Cheers,
Graeme

gma · Apr 21, 2005

When I first started in photograhy there were few through the lens meter cameras. Everytime I checked a bright scene with my hand held meter I got the same result, which in central Texas is between 16 and 22 in summer and between 11 and 16 in winter. The results were so predictable that I stopped using the meter in full sun. Missing exposure by a half stop may be a tragedy for a purist, but practically speaking it is insignificant.

Graeme Hird · Apr 21, 2005

But it works.....
Sunny 16 was invented so that you sould guesstimate easily your exposure if you didn;t have a meter, your batteries went dead, or you had a brownie-box. Due to tthe latitude of film a 1 stop + or - rendered printable negatives and recognizable images.

Don't get me wrong - I know it works, and I've used it to estimate my exposures before.

However, these days I rarely find myself shooting at the times of day when sunny-16 can be used as a guide.

In any case, Velvia doesn't have the latitude to be a stop out - I'd rather save my film than waste a shot (=$$).

Cheers,

gma · Apr 22, 2005

I ALWAYS meter using a grey card when shooting color transparency film. With most B&W negative emulsions a half stop off in full sun is not a problem.

titrisol · Apr 22, 2005

I wouldn;t rsk Velvia/Slides with Sunny 16. But it works great with print film.

Graeme Hird said:
Don't get me wrong - I know it works, and I've used it to estimate my exposures before.

However, these days I rarely find myself shooting at the times of day when sunny-16 can be used as a guide.

In any case, Velvia doesn't have the latitude to be a stop out - I'd rather save my film than waste a shot (=$$).

Cheers,

Is 'Sunny-16' Just a Bad Joke?

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David Henderson

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