Is RA-4 All There Is Now?

[fotch]

Well it's not. And thank Christ for that.
Move on.

Amen.

 

[lightwisps]

Want to sell the chemicals? I have lots of paper but no chems. Might be interested in the whole thing. Please email me at lightwisps@yahoo.com Thanks, Don

 

[DREW WILEY]

I have about one season of Ciba supplies left, but don't know when I'll get to it. Even if I could go back, I wouldn't. A beautiful medium, but very expensive and now basically superseded quality-wise,
in terms of both permanence and color reproduction characteristics. RA4 chem bothers me more, because one could almost instantly neutralize Ciba bleach. Extremely small amts of RA4 bother me,
so if there's a deal-breaker that would be it. But oh, those true darkroom prints can sure look way more
convincing that the alternatives. Color neg printing no longer needs to be that bland stepchild it once
was, suitable only for low-key subjects like portraiture or "artsy" off-color things. It's really grown up.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Let's just be grateful that most of Aunt Maude's vacation pictures have faded into oblivion, and also let us hope that most of today's artsyfied inkjet abominations will also fade prompty. Ciba certainly fades if subjected to strong UV commercial lighting or direct sunlight. It seems to be very permanent in the dark. The current Crystal Archive II medium is allegedly a lot more display permanent than Ciba, but
will probably start to discolor within several decades due to residual couplers, regardless of conditions
(except perhaps hermetically frozen). It therefore represents a good value. We all "fade" too.

Hello? Do you know anything at all about those processes?
And what makes you think the abominations are inkjet prints? Can you name the three processes?
And no, Ilfochrome prints do NOT fade or discolour "after several decades due to residual couplers" regardless of conditions.
Please check your facts and research before coming across as A diety on all things from Ciba to alternative processes. Not all of us stand convinced by a few things you have said here.

 

[AgX]

Drew did not relate Ilfochrome to couplers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Poisson - please read what I actually wrote. It's chromogenic prints which contain residual couplers,
and obviously not chromolytic. And yes, I do know a thing or two about Ciba, as well as accelerated
aging methodology and its limitations. I do not pretend to be a dye chemist, but have individually tested the characteristics of certain media for decades under quite a range of display and mounting conditions. I realize that the web is a very democratic field of conversation where everyone speaks
their mind, but I am not bluffing. Anyone familiar with my methods knows that I test things thoroughly
and that I am offering tidbits of information for everyone's general benefit, that is, if they want to
take an analogous route. This has nothing to do with "alternative processes" which I would interpret as
handmade. This is simply mainstream information, and not by any means unique to me. My Cibachromes has been either displayed alongside or outright purchased by some of the most famous photographers who have ever lived, as well as with major international painters. I have no aspirations to be a household name - could care less about that nonsense. But I'm not a little league printer either. So yes.... I do happen to know something worthwhile about these processes, at least in practical terms. And I think that forty years of printing experience with Ciba would consitute a bit of
background, along with the fact I've personally designed at built some of the most color-accurate enlargers in the world. But 'scuse me ... cause I've got to soon change a lightbulb in one.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It is perhaps somewhat off topic on APUG to discuss a purely digital color methodology, namely inkjet.
Aardenburg is probably doing the most comprehensive stability testing on such materials. The archival
issue of inkjet is the sheer complexity of all the potential ingredients and combinations of substrates.
Accelerated aging testing is better than nothing, but is no substitute for an actual track record, which
simply doesn not exist with inkjet at this point in history. If you study the patents, you will realize a
lot of the pigments are simply lakes of otherwise ordinary dyes which might or might not be superior to
their original ingredient. By contrast, the characteristics of the three primary azo dyes in Ciba are very
well known at this point in time, and the steady evolution of typical chromogenic papers (now RA4) has
quite a long precedent. The term "abomination" should be completely fair on a forum allegedly dedicated to analog practice. I was generically referring to how, given how inkjet has now taken over
the majority of amateur printing needs, it has basically replaced all the hideous image qualities once
provided by the corner Photomat. There are obviously very skilled practitioners of inkjet too, just as
many world-class printers previously chose Cibachrome or dye transfer as a premier medium. Visually,
optical prints still have certain seamless characteristics that can nearly be mimicked by top-end laser
printers, but not yet by inkjet, though it has its own appeal. This being APUG, one would at least
of imagine that there are some potential color darkroom workers tuning in here who will take advantage
of my own learning curve.

 

[MartinP]

I always smile (usually only inwardly) when someone refers to their inkjet print as a Giclee print. Obviously the french-ified sort of word must be 'better', but it also translates as ejaculation-print.....

 

[Worker 11811]

I always smile (usually only inwardly) when someone refers to their inkjet print as a Giclee print. Obviously the french-ified sort of word must be 'better', but it also translates as ejaculation-print.....

From the Google Translate app on my iPad:
Giclee: noun: splash, spurt, jet

Yup! Sounds about right.

 

[kevs]

Let's just be grateful that most of Aunt Maude's vacation pictures have faded into oblivion, and also let us hope that most of today's artsyfied inkjet abominations will also fade prompty.

Probably Aunt Maud's grandchildren would treasure their grandmother's holiday pictures, but they might throw your artsified (and meaningless to them) Ilfochrome abominations into the nearest skip/dumpster!

San fairy ann,
kevs

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well... not exactly. People have purchased unframed work-print Cibas which I threw into the trash! I'm like to accommodate people, and if they can only afford to spend several hundred bucks per print, I
come up with something. They look good enough for general decor. The old faded Cibas seem to get
handed down to someone too. Never had heard of anyone throwing one out yet, though a few are probably well past their prime. And I'm sure Aunt Maud would look even more stately with all her nose warts and frills on her lil' ole lady hat in crisp focus on a fine Ciba print.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

All of my small A5 to A4 printer's proof Ilfochromes were framed. They were equally as effective to prospective clients as the finished prints, only smaller and thus in many cases, more appealing (for space limitations, for instance).

Ilfochrome was not the be-all and end-all of fine art-quality printing — for a lot of works, B&W would be better than the pissing around in the darkroom with Ilfochrome — a statement one uttered by two of my printers who, while not criticising my work (they never did, and they actually bought some), were making reference to how much more tedious the Ilfo' process was as opposed to the infinite variations 'on tap' in B&W.

It began to lose its lustre in the early 2000s when constant increases on cost, production stuff-ups, bad to terrible distribution channels and often just faulty stock really grated. Whatever other professionals migrated to and with good reason, I don't much care; I went my own way and am quite happy with that, as are the clients to whom I explained why I would not be printing to Ilfochrome further. Besides all that, it is the quality of the work: compositional metrics, knowledge of subject and lenswork that people find more attractive, not what type of bloody print it is.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I simply got tired of printing Ciba. Then, like you said, the prices skyrocketed at around the same time
the distribution started getting messed up.... and I figured its days were limited, so starting experimenting with color neg and RA4 paper, which was at that point far from satisfactory to me, but evolving, and has now arrived at a point where I feel is superior to Ciba. I also did plenty of black and
white work in the interim. I never found the masking work tedious, rather an enjoyable challenge, and
still employ analogous techniques to color neg work, though one does not routinely need to do this
as back in Ciba days, just as an ocassional tweak.