Is pushing possible with color negative film?

rpavich · Feb 3, 2017

Is pushing cover negative possible in the same way pushing black-and-white film is?

Since all C-41 film is developed at the same temperature and time it doesn't seem possible, I've seen lots of conflicting answers to this question.

Does it really work or do you get horrible color shifts?

MattKing · Feb 3, 2017

Yes.
Many pro labs will/would do it at extra cost. They would often have slower service times too, because they would tend to batch up the "push" orders and do them all at once.
You get shifts, but more importantly you get crossover.
It gives you the same sort of contrast boost but not any real speed boost that you get with black and white.

rpavich · Feb 4, 2017

MattKing said:
Yes.
Many pro labs will/would do it at extra cost. They would often have slower service times too, because they would tend to batch up the "push" orders and do them all at once.
You get shifts, but more importantly you get crossover.
It gives you the same sort of contrast boost but not any real speed boost that you get with black and white.

Thanks matt.

Europan · Feb 4, 2017

Yes, it is, but what is a cover negative?

rpavich · Feb 4, 2017

Europan said:
Yes, it is, but what is a cover negative?

Haha...dang spell check and my not noticing.

BMbikerider · Feb 4, 2017

I know when I have over stepped the mark with the developing. The negative becomes very dark and the filtration goes haywire. Even after correcting it as best I can there is always some sort of degradation in the image.

AgX · Feb 4, 2017

At least Kodak offered C-41 films designed for Push-2.

darkroommike · Feb 4, 2017

It works, sort of. Worked best with a generation of C-41 high speed films that tolerated pushing, overdeveloping, without building contrast. (At least density seemed to build faster than contrast the few times I used these films.) We were already scanning our negatives at the paper rather than printing so we could adjust color and contrast while scanning. These films went by various names, and I'm sure the names changed depending on what market you were in but the Fujicolor I used was labeled "Reporter".

FujiLove · Feb 4, 2017

Add 30 seconds development per stop. It seems to work okay up to +2, at least with the examples I've seen using good quality Kodak film such as Portra 400.

LAG · Feb 5, 2017

rpavich said:
Is pushing ... possible in the same way pushing black-and-white film is?

Yes, it is

rpavich said:
Since all C-41 film is developed at the same temperature and time it doesn't seem possible...

There's a reason for that, isn't it?: a correct chemistry/temp reaction for a correct colour rendition. Is not a whim. Is not an obligation either.

rpavich said:
Does it really work or do you get horrible color shifts?

It depends on many things, but a colour shift will happen.

First of all "Really work" & "Horrible shifts" should be defined beforehand (taste/needs), as well as the film involved.

Then, to what extent the process will be should be considered, the higher the pushing, the higher the shifts & the visual judgment will be. Taking into consideration that other film factors will vary as well, not only colour.

And last but not least it also counts the output destination for that negative film.

Regards

rpavich · Feb 6, 2017

LAG said:
Yes, it is

There's a reason for that, isn't it?: a correct chemistry/temp reaction for a correct colour rendition. Is not a whim. Is not an obligation either.

It depends on many things, but a colour shift will happen.

First of all "Really work" & "Horrible shifts" should be defined beforehand (taste/needs), as well as the film involved.

Then, to what extent the process will be should be considered, the higher the pushing, the higher the shifts & the visual judgment will be. Taking into consideration that other film factors will vary as well, not only colour.

And last but not least it also counts the output destination for that negative film.

Regards

Thanks everyone.

I guess I'll shoot a couple test rolls to see what's possible.

Gerald C Koch · Feb 20, 2017

Unlike B&W films color ones have three elusions layer one for each color. When you push these films the top layer gets more development and the bottom layer less than anticipated. This causes the color rendition of the film to be skewed. Changing the filter pack can obviate the problem a bit but cannot completely correct it.

Berri · Feb 20, 2017

BMbikerider said:
I know when I have over stepped the mark with the developing. The negative becomes very dark and the filtration goes haywire. Even after correcting it as best I can there is always some sort of degradation in the image.

true. It happened to me the other day with a Portra 400 pushed 2 stop. The filtration was C+M although the negative density looked really good and with that filtration i managed to achive quite a good colour balancing. You can see it in a discussion here concerning the use of Cyan filters

Rudeofus · Feb 20, 2017

Pushing works miracles with films that have a very long toe and gives noticeable improvement in shadow detail. In order to achieve good ISO speed while keeping grain small, Kodak (and others) created films with very small toe regions, in this case pushing does nothing much except boost contrast. Color films are typically of this new type - very short toe, straight curve, little benefit from pushing. That's why Kodak recommends standard development procedure for Portra even if it's underexposed by 2 stops.

dourbalistar · Feb 21, 2017

For what it's worth, here is Little Film Lab's notes on pushing color film. Unlike other labs, they offer the push/pull service at no additional cost. No affiliation with the lab, just passing information along:
Pushing color negative film does not result in a great speed enhancement and should only be done regularly for artistic effect.

I think that advice lines up well with what more qualified posters have indicated up thread.

spacecadet · Mar 3, 2017

Just sharing my experience: Kodak Portra 400 is amazing film.

After shooting many many rolls of it at pretty much any ISO I wanted and getting acceptable results(For 35mm), I conducted a test.

I took a roll and shot it at 400, 800 and 1600, yes the same roll! self processed at home and scanned. Every shot was usable. That's incredible to me.

Jeff Bradford · Mar 3, 2017

spacecadet said:
Just sharing my experience: Kodak Portra 400 is amazing film.

After shooting many many rolls of it at pretty much any ISO I wanted and getting acceptable results(For 35mm), I conducted a test.

I took a roll and shot it at 400, 800 and 1600, yes the same roll! self processed at home and scanned. Every shot was usable. That's incredible to me.

Did you push it in processing or did you develop as per "normal" C-41 rules? I'm curious because I may actually use some Portra 400 on something this weekend where I had planned on using all TMAX 400.

spacecadet · Mar 3, 2017

Oh sorry forgot that part! YES normal C-41 times/temps. Cheers!

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2017

Pushing any film generally results in just a contrast increase, not a true speed increase. With B&W this can be compensated for with VC papers, but with color there is no such thing. So, the results suffer. Add to that, crossover and other color shifts and you can get a real mess.

A tutorial on this would take quite a bit of space here!

PE

spacecadet · Mar 3, 2017

I agree with Photo Engineer- You can get into a mess. In the past when I have chosen to push a color film it is only to trick my camera's light meter. I prefer to shoot with AE+Comp and I push Portra 400 knowing the results will not be as good as shooting it at the specified ISO.

Edit: This is actually why I like pushing Portra, it is low contrast to begin with and I have found it very tolerant.

Here is an example of it at 800ISO (Normal non-pushed developing process)
and 1600ISO

Rudeofus · Mar 4, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Pushing any film generally results in just a contrast increase, not a true speed increase. With B&W this can be compensated for with VC papers, but with color there is no such thing. So, the results suffer. Add to that, crossover and other color shifts and you can get a real mess.

You make this a general statement about color film, and I would like to point out that this applies to negative film only. There may be color cross over, grain increase and all kind of other effects with pushed slide film, but developing underexposed slide film normally gives even worse results.

Photo Engineer said:
A tutorial on this would take quite a bit of space here!

This would require a lot of space, but it would be well invested space. I lost countless rolls of film to push-mania.

mjk · Mar 4, 2017

Frankly, C-41 film has enough lattitude built in that actually pushing is pointless. I remember shooting Fuji Superia X-Tra 400 where I treated it as either 200, 400, or 800 speed film depending on the light -- all on the same roll. It just worked and all the shots came out fine.

Photo Engineer · Mar 4, 2017

mjk said:
Frankly, C-41 film has enough lattitude built in that actually pushing is pointless. I remember shooting Fuji Superia X-Tra 400 where I treated it as either 200, 400, or 800 speed film depending on the light -- all on the same roll. It just worked and all the shots came out fine.

I've said this and posted examples here before in support of this.

PE

mjk · Mar 4, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
I've said this and posted examples here before in support of this.

PE

I was attempting to concur and offer my own anecdata.

Mike

rpavich · Mar 5, 2017

Thanks again everyone!
I appreciate the information.

Is pushing possible with color negative film?

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