Is ORWO in trouble or a scam? Preordered 2500 rolls and not received a single roll for a year now.

MattKing · Jun 18, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Then delete the advice to badmouth Orwo.

Perhaps you are interpreting something differently than others might be:

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
bad-mouth
verb
INFORMAL
verb: badmouth

criticize (someone or something); speak disloyally of.
"no one wants to hire an individual who bad-mouths a prior employer"

greg zinselmeier · Jun 18, 2023

My advice is don’t buy from ARWO, or whatever they are called!! In the future is that kinda deal is sought,( roughly five grand USD) you are best to get a broker to handle the legal side. Particularly international sales. I consider not getting a broker to be foolish. AFAIK, you got what you asked for. Cheap film, with no contract. They took your money and ran and used “your loan” to bankroll other projects with no interest paid to you!!! Next time get your lawyer and broker involved first.

faberryman · Jun 18, 2023

greg zinselmeier said:
My advice is don’t buy from ARWO, or whatever they are called!! In the future is that kinda deal is sought,( roughly five grand USD) you are best to get a broker to handle the legal side. Particularly international sales. I consider not getting a broker to be foolish. AFAIK, you got what you asked for. Cheap film, with no contract. They took your money and ran and used “your loan” to bankroll other projects with no interest paid to you!!! Next time get your lawyer and broker involved first.

Just make sure your lawyer and your broker aren't going to charge you more than you paid for the film to get your film delivered or your money back.

greg zinselmeier · Jun 18, 2023

faberryman said:
Just make sure your lawyer and your broker aren't going to charge you more than you paid for the film to get your film delivered or your money back.

I bought some equipment from a company in Amsterdam about 5 years ago. The sale was about 4300 usd . My broker free was 350 usd and my lawyer to review and amend was about 500 usd. I spent a thousand so I don’t loose 4 thousand.

Agulliver · Jun 19, 2023

Legally speaking a contract is made as soon as they accept the offer, and your funds.

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2023

Just curious but in the U.S. is there any protection given by your credit card company for this kind of thing and can this kind of situation be covered by the sort of business insurance that presumably companies take out?

Thanks

pentaxuser

greg zinselmeier · Jun 19, 2023

Agulliver said:
Legally speaking a contract is made as soon as they accept the offer, and your funds.

That may be true, but you need to “buy” someone to make sure it’s followed through on.

If here in the US, I make a purchase and I do not get the item(s) I can go to BBB, states attorney, small claims court, etc. if I buy international, I do not have the immediacy and the same protections.

brbo · Jun 19, 2023

How does paying a broker and a laywer to draft a contract give you that immediacy and protection in international transaction?

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2023

Agulliver said:
Legally speaking a contract is made as soon as they accept the offer, and your funds.

True, however unwritten contracts are harder to enforce.

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Just curious but in the U.S. is there any protection given by your credit card company for this kind of thing and can this kind of situation be covered by the sort of business insurance that presumably companies take out?

Thanks

pentaxuser

In the US, one can dispute a charge. Depending on the credit card company, the charge can be 60 days earlier, by law, or longer. I recently disputed a charge that was made in November 2022, because of a problem. After my credit card company asked for and received responses from both sides, then asked for more information for both side, the credit card company opted to refund the full amount to me rather than the partial refund I requested, based on their findings. In this particular case it took about three months for the decision partially because my credit card company provided generous amounts of time for each side to state their case.

Agulliver · Jun 19, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
True, however unwritten contracts are harder to enforce.

If someone has placed an order for x rolls of film or x feet of film, there must be a record of it somewhere....and if the funds were paid upfront there's also a record of the payment being made. A contract has been entered into.

Though nothing I see suggests ORWO is a scam, they may well have bitten off more than they can currently chew. It is reasonable for customers who ordered months ago to ask for their film, or a refund.

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2023

Agulliver said:
If someone has placed an order for x rolls of film or x feet of film, there must be a record of it somewhere....and if the funds were paid upfront there's also a record of the payment being made. A contract has been entered into.

Though nothing I see suggests ORWO is a scam, they may well have bitten off more than they can currently chew. It is reasonable for customers who ordered months ago to ask for their film, or a refund.

The problem is enforcement. Since this was an international purchase, what court would one file a case and then if one prevailed how would one collect?

greg zinselmeier · Jun 19, 2023

brbo said:
How does paying a broker and a laywer to draft a contract give you that immediacy and protection in international

Take the time and call a broker, and talk to them.

In my case, the broker arranged for pick up with local vendor,the terms were spelled out COD. My broker arranged to get it out of customs and provide a carrier across the sea, arranged for an expedited clearing customs in NY. Arranged local delivery to my business. Here in the US. My attorney with my broker sorted out all detailed BEFORE agreement was made with price for what I wanted in Amsterdam. It all went smoothly. I had everything in less than a month.

greg zinselmeier · Jun 19, 2023

You also have to remember that inspection of goods prior to pick up is amongst other things a mandatory! Are you going to buy something sight unseen?? Also insurance of goods and insurance of money

pentaxuser · Jun 19, 2023

Thanks Sirius for the post on your experience. Does credit card protection of the kind you mentioned only apply to transactions between parties in the same country?

I had the impression that one of the advantages of paying by credit card is that if you can demonstrate that the other party has not delivered its part of the contract of sale to the credit card company then it refunds your money and then it has the responsibility of recovering that money

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Jun 19, 2023

Orwo is not what we might think, there's no coating plant except a small line for emulsion test runs. Coating was outsourced in recent years, one person involved has apparently defrauded the other investors, which meant the coating company was not paid. I have the names but as there is legal action underway that's enough said.

It's not the only apparent fraud (in our field) recently in Germany, the person behind the Kickstarter campaign to re-introduce the Meyer Trioplan, and separate campaigns for the CZJ Biotar 58mm f1.5 and 75mm F1.5 copies, is another example. It's not the people doing the actual production or the R&D before that at fault.

AgX has not posted here since January, he knew the ins and outs of the Kickstarter lens frauds plus a lot more apparently fraudulent activity by the same person. {Moderator's deletion - the use of the pronoun "he" was highly problematic}

Ian

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Sirius for the post on your experience. Does credit card protection of the kind you mentioned only apply to transactions between parties in the same country?

I had the impression that one of the advantages of paying by credit card is that if you can demonstrate that the other party has not delivered its part of the contract of sale to the credit card company then it refunds your money and then it has the responsibility of recovering that money

pentaxuser

The credit card purchase are covered by its plan based on the US requirements and it applies to any purchase I make anywhere.

Your second paragraph is correct. In my case, at the start the credit card company backcharged the money, thus recovering the money and temporarily reimbursed my account and informed the seller. Then the credit card company collected statements from both side, evaluated the responses, made the decision, and at that point turned the temporary reimbursement into a permanent reimbursement. The money was recouped by the credit card company upfront.

Kino · Jun 19, 2023

Doesn't INTERPOL have some sway in this, or have I simply watched too much cheap US TV?

koraks · Jun 19, 2023

Kino said:
INTERPOL

Lol. No, they're not going to get involved in a "massive" scam involving film rolls. Maybe if they were stuffed with XTC pills.

greg zinselmeier · Jun 19, 2023

Your showing your age by referring to “it” as XTC, that was 30 years ago , then 20 years ago it changed to “E” then 10 years ago it changed to . . . I don’t remember now, but anyway, no one says XTC now a days

Nicholas Lindan · Jun 19, 2023

greg zinselmeier said:
...No one says XTC now a days...

No, us ole' hippies called it MDA. What these little wet-behind-the-ears young 'uns call it is - well, really, who cares what they call it. Can't even get the real stuff anymore.

Sirius Glass · Jun 19, 2023

Kino said:
Doesn't INTERPOL have some sway in this, or have I simply watched too much cheap US TV?

Too much television. INTERPOL is a database, not a police organization. The screenwriters are too lazy to find the name of the organization that would be correct, it is just easier to type "INTERPOL".

notoriousLT · Jun 20, 2023

Kino said:
Doesn't INTERPOL have some sway in this, or have I simply watched too much cheap US TV?

I’m glad you’re finding out here, rather than when you’re in deep shit in the UK and use your call for INTERPOL, but hey maybe they’d call the right agency for you

koraks · Jun 20, 2023

greg zinselmeier said:
Your showing your age by referring to “it” as XTC, that was 30 years ago

Hehe, I was way too young back then to have anything to do with that stuff
Truthfully though, I never tried it, nor do I intend to. That ship has sailed. I'm pretty open minded about these things, but most of it is not for me.

Agulliver · Jun 20, 2023

The contract would be made with the vendor, and would be legally made in the country the vendor is registered in. If you use a credit card, any protections afforded will be in the terms and conditions of *your* credit card, regardless of where the purchase is made. Protection may be less by debit card and will be less by other methods.

As an example. If I commit to purchase some film from my laptop in the UK with my UK credit card, with a company in Germany and another in the USA....both are covered by my UK credit card T&Cs which are pretty compehensive. In a case whre goods hadn't arrived after months I could claim every penny back quite easily and the card company would go after the vendor.

My contracts would be in Germany and the USA, and each would be bound by the laws in those countries and states within the USA.

Either way, first port of call is with the vendor, and if that draws a blank then with the card issuer. Finally with the courts, though you may find your card issuer does this part on your behalf.

It seems a very strange situation going on and I'd be getting worried too.

Is ORWO in trouble or a scam? Preordered 2500 rolls and not received a single roll for a year now.

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