Is Kodak Portra rebranded Kodak Vision3 stock?

sperera · Dec 19, 2017

Is the Kodak Portra line rebranded Vision3 stock? The look of Vision 3 and Portra to my eyes are one and the same.......and you expose for it the same way.....just read comments in cinematography.com

It would make sense commercially don't you think?.....get your flagship colour negative film optimised for the most demanding of clients - the film industry - produce it in different sensitivities and then cut it all into their formats....10 x 8 (photo), 5x4 (photo), 65mm (cine), 120 (photo), 35mm, 16mm (cine) and Super 8 (cine)....im sure Im forgetting formats.....

.....surely the 120 photo format is surely easiest for them to produce? nice and wide and no perforations to put on them.....

but what do I know....I stand here to be corrected and look forward to comments about my favourite colour negative film.

Richard Man · Dec 19, 2017

I suppose they could use similar technology, would be foolish not to share the best tech across product lines. "Exact;y" the same is probably not true? As cine film is ECN-2 and Portra is C41

sperera · Dec 19, 2017

yes of course, same film with added REMJET...I quote another user who posted this from Kodak:

"Remjet, a removable jet black layer, is the coating of carbon black particles in a water-soluble binder on the bottom of the film. It has four purposes: antihalation, antistatic, lubrication and scratch protection. Light entering the film can reflect off the front or back surface of the film base and return into the imaging layers to expose them. When light spreads laterally beyond its intended boundary, an image appears to have a halo around it (halation). The antihalation layer prevents this by absorbing light that reaches it. The remjet carbon layer is conductive and prevents the build-up and discharge of static charges that can fog film. This is especially important in conditions of low relative humidity. Remjet also has lubricating properties. Like the supercoat on top of the emulsion, remjet resists scratching on the base side and helps transport the film through cameras, scanners, and printers"
Kodak

Prest_400 · Dec 19, 2017

Portra and Ektar have Vision3 in them but aren't exactly the same, the still films draw from the improvements of the cine line. Cinestill is Vision3 Kodak 500T stripped of its remjet layer. I think it would be interesting if all formats had more commonality, at least economically, for Kodak.

sperera said:
.....surely the 120 photo format is surely easiest for them to produce? nice and wide and no perforations to put on them.....

The paper is quite problematic. Ironically paper is supposed to be a simple product, but the backing paper is quite specialized and Kodak had many issues with the ink reacting with the film. There was 220 but it also needs film as leader and tail.
Sheet might be the simplest to finish.

AgX · Dec 19, 2017

sperera said:
yes of course, same film with added REMJET

Cine- and Still- camera films are different in more important ways than a backing layer.
They are designed to produce different gammas and to work with differend developing agents.

twelvetone12 · Dec 19, 2017

No. It needs a different developing agent, develops to a different contrast, the high speed versions are tungsten balanced and there is not daylight equivalent of the visions to the various portras. I don't see how it could be rebranded.

sperera · Dec 19, 2017

yes my question was not very intelligent I know but wanted to hear whats what from people who actually know

Cholentpot · Dec 19, 2017

I shoot the 500T stuff and it's pretty good. Colors are off no matter what but I don't really care all that much. The REMJET took some time to learn to deal with. Is it Portra? Nope. Does not have the same look at all.

sperera · Dec 19, 2017

Vision3 500T doesn't look like Portra I mean Vision 50D and 250D...the Tungsten balanced Vision3 will look different no?

Minoltafan2904 · Dec 19, 2017

Similar look does not mean they are the same! Fuji PRO 400H and Portra 400 look very similar but are ofcourse not the same.
Kodak Portra which appeared in 1998 comes from the dead Kodak Vericolor series, designed for portrait and wedding photography.

trendland · Dec 19, 2017

In the past Kodak always stated some amateuric films (for example Kodak Elitechrome 100 - [ E6 ] ) were designed
from the proffessional version. Or let's say " the amateuric version came from the proffessional type " in this example from Kodak Ektachrome 100G.
I can't say for sure but from my opionon
it was sometimes the opposite as Kodak told us.
That means the amateuric version was the basis to make the proffessional variante. Never mind - from this example above I have an Idea of that boths films are the same.
The difference in characteristics is very very smal.
With the proffessional type you may have for sure a selektion in regard of very best characteristics from emulsion baking process.
And the Kodak intern storage/delivering is different between boths types as we all know.
At last your question isn't so silly at all.
Let me a little provocate this issue you mentioned and let me state : " Kodak Vision III 500T and Kodak Portra 800 are both THE SAME EMULSION !!!
But if we regard both types corectly there are very little differences .... :
1) 500T is tungsten ballanced.
There might be a different type of color couplers be invoved - but I can't say.
From my understanding the tungsten ballance is also possible from design with same couplers but different design of the layers via amound of couplers and/or thickness/characteristics of layers.
So tungsten ballance is no great deal from design/manfacturing.
But it make a difference (3200degreeF)
So Vision III is rated as ISO 500 - by the time it should be also possible to ballance the emulsion via stronger mask - perhaps this should be the easiest way.
2) Vision 500T is ECN2 and Kodak Portra
is a C41 film.
This might be / definitive is a real difference from design (due to little different couplers)
But I realy would not care about to much because I can't see the "BIG" difference
between C41 and ECN2 !!!!
(the difference between E4 and E6 should be more relevant - but you can not realy compare such methods )
3) the ramjet of Vision III 500T.
WOW what a difference

....
a simpel layer in addition - just forget it !

To your question : You can use boths films and you soon will find out :
nearly 92% same characteristics.
With a main difference in box speed and
color ballance.
(You will have a more factual color style from Kodak Portra and a little more "living colors" from Vision III. )

with special greetings and "Bon Chance"

trendland · Dec 19, 2017

Minoltafan2904 said:
Similar look does not mean they are the same! Fuji PRO 400H and Portra 400 look very similar but are ofcourse not the same.
Kodak Portra which appeared in 1998 comes from the dead Kodak Vericolor series, designed for portrait and wedding photography.

Yes I agree with you but that means Portra out of 1998 was a coplete different film.
You may see the different from improvement of Portra400 in 2009 ???
I am not sure perhaps it was in 2008?
Let us say 2010 ..... !
The issue with this " New improved Portra400" was : LITTLE LESS GRAINY CHARACTERISTICS AT E.I. 800 IN COMPARISON TO PORTA800 !!!!!!
(PORTRA800 came out later with this remarqable improvement)
Well - Kodak will not tell us how they designed the new Portras but Kodak stated the technology came from VISIONIII ....
I would like to speculate : The emulsion came from there

.....
So let's say the basis of boths emulsions is nearly the same. MEANWHILE !!!!!

with regards

Photo Engineer · Dec 19, 2017

Portra and Vision are NOT the same films. Some of the internal chemistry is similar though.

If any film is closer to Vision it is Ektar.

However, the contrasts and dyes formed are quite different and the developing agents are different.

PE

Richard Man · Dec 19, 2017

And this is how Internet myth starts... who care about data and evidence, "I trust my eyes" XD

trendland · Dec 19, 2017

sperera said:
Vision3 500T doesn't look like Portra I mean Vision 50D and 250D...the Tungsten balanced Vision3 will look different no?

Well now it becomes a little complicate....hmm ???
You shot your layout with Portra 800 and now you want to have the same color style with VISION III 500T - right ?
That should be a task from post production.
Because you shot Portra 800 in mixing light - a tungsten ballanced film will do this job - possible better.
But in general you get what you use !
More neutral colors in this special example.
If it goes to the special color management / color look from the glouving steel (from your examples) -
you may have luck and it will be a little more nice with the tungsten film.
But it should look different.
If you will work with a color temperature meter (I would'd do it - because I have none

) it will also not help to reach same colors.
Because ECN2 let it look a little different.
If it goes to 100,00% same colors from 6x6 lay out I just see post production with very smal adjustments.
Wow - that means to render frame by frame - but no problem with little hardware resources today - isn't it ?

with regards

trendland · Dec 19, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Portra and Vision are NOT the same films. Some of the internal chemistry is similar though.

If any film is closer to Vision it is Ektar.

However, the contrasts and dyes formed are quite different and the developing agents are different.

PE

Very interisting - I provocate this statement a bit because I was waiting for such competent information.
Now the case is solved.
And we know a little more about this issues....
Thanks a lot PE - better to ask direcly an expert before beginning speculations.

with much fun...
and with regards

trendland · Dec 19, 2017

By the time if VISION III is closer to Ektar (I had the idea a while before with 50D)........50D (not the same film but simular to Ektar) .......
It may give an idea of the total grainyless characteristics Ektar50 would have.

(Remembering Ektar25 AND Ektar1000 from far behind)

with regards

Photo Engineer · Dec 19, 2017

Kodak gave information on the similarities between Vision and Ektar. They both contain T-grains and cubic grains in some layers for better speed and grain. It may be locatable somewhere in the older Internet info.

PE

Chris Livsey · Dec 20, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak gave information on the similarities between Vision and Ektar. They both contain T-grains and cubic grains in some layers for better speed and grain. It may be locatable somewhere in the older Internet info.

PE

This perhaps:
What technologies were used to develop such an outstanding film?
In addition to Micro-Structure Optimized T-GRAIN® Emulsions, the film incorporates KODAK VISION Film technology, and advanced cubic grain technology.

http://wwwde.kodak.com/global/en/pr...AndA.jhtml?id=0.2.26.14.5.14.14&lc=de&pq-pf=1
Or similar: http://wwwuk.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/ektar/ektarIndex.jhtml?pq-path=13328

Personally I found this one most informative but not directly related to Ektar but more on the technology of Vision3 expanding on the point PE made on "some layers" :
http://125px.com/docs/motionpicture/kodak/VISION3_50D_5203_Technical_ Backgrounder.pdf

This new film also features segregation of each color record into multiple zones of light sensitivity – three zones of sensitivity for the cyan and magenta layers, and two zones for the yellow layer

lantau · Dec 20, 2017

Now that was an interesting document! In particular the low sensitivity layer allowing increased overexposure latitude. I guess that could be an example of Vision3 technology that can be transferred from an ECN2 film to C41, despite their different chemistry.

Chris Livsey · Dec 20, 2017

lantau said:
Now that was an interesting document! In particular the low sensitivity layer allowing increased overexposure latitude. I guess that could be an example of Vision3 technology that can be transferred from an ECN2 film to C41, despite their different chemistry.

Now here I must be careful in wandering too much to the dark side, but this document on the Vision3 50D in post production section:
https://www.kodak.com/uploadedFiles/Motion/Products/Camera_Films/5203/Resources/5203_ti2657.pdf
Links to this one
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/v...ommendations-for-extended-dynamic-range-kodak

Which while not directly asked here is relevant to this thread in the forum:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-is-portra-optimised-for-scanning.156171/

Any discussions down these lines should be taken to the appropriate section but is relevant to the design of the film I think.

Photo Engineer · Dec 20, 2017

Obviously, I can't go into detail here, it would be too long. However, Bob Shanebrook gives some of this information in his second book.

PE

AgX · Dec 23, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
This new film also features segregation of each color record into multiple zones of light sensitivity – three zones of sensitivity for the cyan and magenta layers, and two zones for the yellow layer

This is long time standard in the industry.

Chris Livsey · Dec 23, 2017

AgX said:
This is long time standard in the industry.

Your quote of my post implies those are my words, they are not, they are a quote from the linked Kodak Press Release http://125px.com/docs/motionpicture/kodak/VISION3_50D_5203_Technical_ Backgrounder.pdf

AgX · Dec 23, 2017

I know, but Kodak imply that they are employing a new technology, which it is not and used by their competitors for long.

Is Kodak Portra rebranded Kodak Vision3 stock?

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