Is Kodak BW400cn really Kodak GW400cn

[alapin]

I just got back my third roll of Kodak Pro BW400cn from the local developer.
I have tried this film two other times with the worse results in the world. First time they told me the machine eat my film. The second time, with a different camera, there was nothing but a few very light lines here and there. This time the negatives look good except for a few seen overexposed. The prints are not black and white but green and white. Now I have had a few rolls of film developed over the past 50+ years and I have develop a number of them myself. I have never seen prints that are green and white.

Can someone, who has used this film, tell me if they are suppose to B&W or G&W?
They look weird.

 

[Tim Gray]

The minilab operators usually have problems making the prints B&W. As far as I know, if they just clicked a box somewhere on the machines for "B&W" they'd be fine, but they don't. Sometimes they come out sepia looking too. Same goes for XP2 Super.

I've found you are better off just get it dev'd and scanned. Then take the scans home, desaturate them, and get prints made from the new images.

 

[erikg]

The green and white comes from the lab, or "lab" if it really is just a machine at a drug store. The operator did not know how to balance the color correctly for a neutral print. They are printing onto color paper. Quite often one might get a brown and white or some such. You should take it back and have them try again. It is possible to get a pretty good neutral gray.

 

[alapin]

Thanks Tim and erlkg,

I agree that the person didn't know how to use the machine. I will scan them and use PS to correct. I have order some new B&W developer and will develop them myself the next time. I read where someone develop Ilford xp2 in rodinal, so I'll give it a shot with Kodak BW400cn.

 

[removed-user-1]

I don't know how far you are from Charlotte, NC, but Biggs Camera here does a very good job with BW400cn.

 

[alapin]

rthomas,

About two and half hour drive.

I wanted to try out this film to see what it looked like. Not having much success there. I shoot Acros 100 in 35mm and 120. So very unlikely to every shoot it again.

 

[marsbars]

I have shot a few rolls and had them developed at walmart 1 hr. Nothing but good results.

 

[Tim Gray]

I know you can develop in Rodinal, but I wouldn't expect that great of results...

 

[alapin]

marsbars,

The nearest Walmart to me is 30 miles. They no longer have a 1 hour service, all film is sent out. I use them when I shoot 35mm color, because I love the Fujicolor Crystal Archive paper the outside lab uses.


Tim,

I agree that the Rodinal developer will not give very great results, but so far I have shot three rolls of this film and still don't know what it really looks like.

 

[Tim Gray]

I can't imagine it will look anything like it's supposed to in Rodinal. These films need to have the silver bleached out of them for proper development - the final image is dye like in color film. In Rodinal, you aren't going to get that. You'll have silver and dye. Just take the scans (if you got them) and desaturate them and you are good to go.

 

[alapin]

Tim,

Check out this site where Rodinal is used to develop Ilford xp2.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/rodinal/discuss/72157622703641006/

 

[Tim Gray]

Fair enough. I'd take it with a grain of salt because you don't know how much adjustments were made after scanning to punch up the contrast and do away with the base color. Also, XP2 has a gray base, while BW400CN has an orange base - I don't know if it is the same masking used in color neg, or if it's just a base tint. Not sure what that will do in Rodinal, but you can always try it out.

 

[alapin]

Tim,

There you go. As soon as I get my order of Rodinal, I will shoot the last roll and see what it looks like. Worse case, it will be no worse off that what I have from the other three rolls. Who knows maybe it want be that bad.

 

[Russ - SVP]

I've never been able to get decent results with the Kodak 400CN film. The negs are always flat & lifeless. However, I do always seem to get excellent results with Ilford's XP-2 and especially Fuji's Neopan 400CN. The attached snaps were shot on Neopan 400CN (C-41 B/W) and are straight scans from the negatives. No post processing.

 

[Tim Gray]

I've never had many problems with either film, other than the funny color cast minilab ops forget to take out.

The real recommendation I'd make between BW400CN and XP2 is based on availability and final output. BW400CN is much easier to get in the US it seems - it's stocked in a lot of places as the B&W option along side consumer color film. And if you are going to wet print, XP2 might be a better choice since it doesn't have the orange base. I've never tried to wet print either, but I understand that the orange base acts as VC filter and can do funny things.

Below are crummy scans from Target. Nothing is touched from what I got back from the minilab. First up is BW400CN, then T400CN (the version prior to BW400CN), and lastly is an XP2 Super photo. Notice the color casts are different for all of them. They change with every roll depending on the operator (in my experience). The BW400CN shot could use a bit higher of a black point, but that's not the film's fault.

 

[fschifano]

Look, it's really simple. Kodak's BW400CN is a C-41 film. Run it through the standard C-41 chemistry, and if the line is running properly what comes out the other end is a strip of negatives just like any other C-41 film. The problem you're having with green prints is the prints themselves. The operators of the printing machine either don't know or don't care to set it up properly for that film.

What you cannot do well with this film is to print it at home on standard B&W paper. The orange mask, there to make it work better with RA-4 printing, pretty much makes it impossible. Ilford's XP2 Super is also a monochrome C-41 film, but is designed to be printed onto standard B&W paper and lacks the orange mask. In all other respects, it is similar to the Kodak product, and minilabs will have a problem making neutral toned prints from it too unless some care is taken to compensate.

Using Rodinal to develop either of these films is just plain wrong headed if you expect optimal results. It will not remove the orange mask from the Kodak product, and will not cause the dye, from which the image in a C-41 negative is composed, to form.

 

[Russ - SVP]

Tim

Those are much better than what I get with the Kodak version. I'll stick with the Ilford and Fuji C-41 B/W films. They always seem to deliver great results for me.

Kiron Kid

 

[Russ - SVP]

The Fuji Neopan 400CN, also does not have the orange color cast.

 

[2F/2F]

Look, it's really simple. Kodak's BW400CN is a C-41 film. Run it through the standard C-41 chemistry, and if the line is running properly what comes out the other end is a strip of negatives just like any other C-41 film. The problem you're having with green prints is the prints themselves. The operators of the printing machine either don't know or don't care to set it up properly for that film.

What you cannot do well with this film is to print it at home on standard B&W paper. The orange mask, there to make it work better with RA-4 printing, pretty much makes it impossible. Ilford's XP2 Super is also a monochrome C-41 film, but is designed to be printed onto standard B&W paper and lacks the orange mask. In all other respects, it is similar to the Kodak product, and minilabs will have a problem making neutral toned prints from it too unless some care is taken to compensate.

Using Rodinal to develop either of these films is just plain wrong headed if you expect optimal results. It will not remove the orange mask from the Kodak product, and will not cause the dye, from which the image in a C-41 negative is composed, to form.

I was going to post a reply, but I figure I should just "dittoize" this one instead.

 

[Aurum]

Developing C41 with Rodinal does give IMHO reasonable results, but its getting into the realms of cross processing, and that is a different sort of thing to what I think the issue the OP is having here

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

With a properly running modern minilab line, these days overt colour casts from stuff like XP2 should be quite rare compared to when it first came out, and minilabs were less sophisticated. BW400CN was designed to be 100% compatible with minilabs running colour C41 as it has the same orange base as a colour negative.

In my previous experience BW400CN gives less colour casts, but I'm not a fan of the look which is a bit dull and lifeless compared to XP2, which although is quite soft, has more contrast

 

[Athiril]

Read Kodak's document on printing C-41 films developed in B&W chemicals - http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

I've been wondering what effect the citric acid bleach will have on negs.. I might have to try that.

 

[erikg]

If you are going to get Rodinal and DIY, then why not get some true b&w film too?

 

[Aurum]

If you are going to get Rodinal and DIY, then why not get some true b&w film too?

Because I already have a bottle of Rodinal, and 2.5ml costs me a penny

I've developed loads of FP4/HP5/Delta/Tri-X Already

Disposable cameras tend to be C41 colour (Ignoring the Rollei and Ilford ones)

I fancied a play around, and I was rewarded with not bad results

Because I can!

 

[alapin]

Kiron Kid

I didn't know about Fuji Neopan 400cn film. Thanks for the examples. They look great. I will have to check into it. Are you in the US or England? The only place I found Neopan 400cn was on Ebay, UK. It's only available in UK and Japan from my understanding. The grain really seems very fine yes or no.

fschifano

The reason I wanted to see what this film looked like was in case I ran out while traveling so I could buy some. It's the only B&W film available where film is sold other than online.
I hadn't planned on developing it at all because I figure I would only be using occasionally. After seeing the article about developing XP2 in Rodinal, I thought I would try it out.

Aurum

I'm not a fan of the look either so far.


Athiril

Thanks for the link. Looks interesting so I think I will check it out.


erika

I shoot Acros 100 and Neopan 400 B&W film normally in both 35mm and 120. Which I develop in myself.



Thanks everyone for your input. I have learn several things from you. I am looking forward to ordering some XP2 and seeing if I can find Fuji Neopan 400cn.

 

[Tim Gray]

I encourage you trying out other films, but after reading all the hype about how different these films were, I was seriously underwhelmed. BW400CN and XP2 look pretty similar to me, minus the base color. Don't get your hopes up