Is it worth it?

ccbob · Feb 4, 2006

Is large format still a wise choice if you do not process your own film and prints?

I'm on a septic system, so a real darkroom is pretty much a non-reality for me. But, I have been thinking of purchasing a 4x5 field camera sometime down the road, as my return to film has left me wanting to 'go big'. The obvious problem is control of the process. I could surely develop the film here, but would have to rely on a lab (A&I) to do the printing.

So, I'm wondering if there are many that are shooting large format, but relying on a lab for processing part or all of their work. And if so, are the results worth it?

Thanks!

Donald Miller · Feb 4, 2006

I guess that I don't understand your concerns. Is it the amount of water consumption that concerns you?...or is it the introduction of chemicals into the septic system?

Printing is something that I would not like to relegate to someone else...but then there are some photographers who have others print all of their work. Sebastio Salgado comes to mind.

Dave Parker · Feb 4, 2006

Hi Bob,

I am on septic here in Montana, and still do my own processing, You might check with one of your local labs to see if they will accept your chemicals that you are not comfortable putting down the drain, most of the labs around here are more than willing to put their the silver reclemation machine so you don't have to worry about them, I know quite a few home workers here that do that, they just keep a 5 gallon jug and then take them in, the lab does not charge them anything for this service. Fixer is the chemistry they run through the machine.

Dave

ccbob · Feb 4, 2006

Hi Donald,
Yeah, it's both water usage and the chemicals into the septic system. I have to agree on the printing issue - seems to me that the only way to fully get what you want is to do it yourself.

Thanks for the reply.

ccbob · Feb 4, 2006

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the advice. I'll have to check with the lab down in L.A. I'm up in the desert, about 90 miles from L.A., so there are no local labs for me. The 5-gallon jugs seem like a good idea. I guess I'll have to do some research into possible solutions.

On a side note: I see you're in Montana. My wife is from Kalispell.

Thanks again!

Donald Miller · Feb 4, 2006

ccbob said:
Hi Donald,
Yeah, it's both water usage and the chemicals into the septic system. I have to agree on the printing issue - seems to me that the only way to fully get what you want is to do it yourself.

Thanks for the reply.

On the water issue, tests have shown that rather then a running water wash, that a standing dilution and subsequent series of dumps is very effective. Good luck.

ccbob · Feb 4, 2006

Thanks, Donald.
That would be excellent. Using Dave's method of saving the used chemicals in jugs and a standing water wash would certainly alleviate most of my concerns.

Best regards.

boyooso · Feb 4, 2006

Large Format is still worth it if you can't do your own processing. However it will be more expensire and a bit more troublesome.

I remember the first portrait I shot using my 4X5, it was amazing, I could see the individual hairs of my subject, I was astonished by the detail. And after printing 30X40 cibas from 8X10 transparencies I was even more astonished by the clairity... WOW is it like nothing else!

It is possible to find a lab that will do your processing as you wish and work with you to achieve the results you want.

GOOD LUCK!

Corey

Jon Shiu · Feb 4, 2006

I'm pretty sure you can drop off the used chemicals at a local waste disposal site. Check with your county.

Jon

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

Jon Shiu said:
I'm pretty sure you can drop off the used chemicals at a local waste disposal site. Check with your county.

Jon

This got me thinking about the hazardous waste roundups that the city/county sponsor (I think once/twice a year). I'm sure I could also utilize these events for disposal.

Maybe the issue of chemicals won't be so great after all...

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

boyooso said:
Large Format is still worth it if you can't do your own processing. However it will be more expensire and a bit more troublesome.

I remember the first portrait I shot using my 4X5, it was amazing, I could see the individual hairs of my subject, I was astonished by the detail. And after printing 30X40 cibas from 8X10 transparencies I was even more astonished by the clairity... WOW is it like nothing else!

It is possible to find a lab that will do your processing as you wish and work with you to achieve the results you want.

GOOD LUCK!

Corey

Yeah, it is special to see those beautiful slabs of processed film. I had a Calumet 4x5 many years ago. I only used it a few times and eventually sold it when my photography waned. I recently came across what little shots I took with that camera (mostly B&W, but one surviving chrome). Man, I couldn't help but smile when looking at them. There is something magical about large format. I'm looking forward to shooting some again.

Aggie · Feb 5, 2006

If you are doing B&W, the chemicals are not hazardous. Mix them together put in some steel wool which will plate out the silver, and what is left is a very good fertilzer for your lawn. They neutralize each other into mineral salts.

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

Aggie said:
If you are doing B&W, the chemicals are not hazardous. Mix them together put in some steel wool which will plate out the silver, and what is left is a very good fertilzer for your lawn. They neutralize each other into mineral salts.

Would the steel wool then have to be disposed of in a special manner, or could I simply toss it in the household trash?

Dave Parker · Feb 5, 2006

If you do alot of processing, you can actually sell the silver, but should be able to put in a plastic bag and throw away with no problems.

Dave

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

Satinsnow said:
If you do alot of processing, you can actually sell the silver, but should be able to put in a plastic bag and throw away with no problems.

Dave

Thanks, Dave.
This is sounding more like a 'can do' operation, after all. Now if I could just come up with the $$ to make it happen sooner, rather than later.

roteague · Feb 5, 2006

ccbob said:
Is large format still a wise choice if you do not process your own film and prints?

Of course. I don't have the room to setup a darkroom, so I have all my work done for me. Calypso Imaging in Santa Clara, CA has good prices for E-6 developing, $1.30 per sheet, and Praius Productions in Rochester (they are an APUG sponsor) has good prices on B&W, $1.70 (and fast turn around). You aren't far from West Coast Imaging, who do excellent prints.

removed account4 · Feb 5, 2006

bob--

i have a waste hauler ( easily found in the yellowpages ) take away all my spent chemicals ... it costs less that you get from the reclaimed silver to have them take the "drum" ... there is a company in nevada that will recycle your silver, i wish they had some way for me ( east coast!) to get my chemistry to them - http://www.itronics.com/ >>> they will LEGALLY turn your spent chemistry into fertalizer. a lot of haulers will also sell you a "trickle tank" with an iron core ( will not channel like a copper core tank ) which will also plate out your waste silver ....
with home processing, it is mostly ph ( if you mix spent developer with your spent stop and spent fixer remover and dilute everything is ph-neutral ) and the silver which kills the baceria that live in your septic tank.

good luck!

john

Daniel Lawton · Feb 5, 2006

I have a septic system and dump all B+W chem down the drain with no problems. If I am doing a high volume of prints with more water use than usual, I put a pail under the print washer and throw it on the flower beds so I don't overwhelm the septic tank. The plants haven't died so far. For more toxic stuff like E-6 bleach I collect it in bottles after use.

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

roteague said:
Of course. I don't have the room to setup a darkroom, so I have all my work done for me. Calypso Imaging in Santa Clara, CA has good prices for E-6 developing, $1.30 per sheet, and Praius Productions in Rochester (they are an APUG sponsor) has good prices on B&W, $1.70 (and fast turn around). You aren't far from West Coast Imaging, who do excellent prints.

Thanks, Robert. Since it will probably be some time before I can give this a go, it's nice to have some recommended labs to work with (I've been using A&I for my recent 35mm processing). This frees me up to work on acquiring the camera kit (and learning how to use it), with the prospect that further down the line a darkroom would follow.

Best regards.

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

jnanian said:
bob--

i have a waste hauler ( easily found in the yellowpages ) take away all my spent chemicals ... it costs less that you get from the reclaimed silver to have them take the "drum" ... there is a company in nevada that will recycle your silver, i wish they had some way for me ( east coast!) to get my chemistry to them - http://www.itronics.com/ >>> they will LEGALLY turn your spent chemistry into fertalizer. a lot of haulers will also sell you a "trickle tank" with an iron core ( will not channel like a copper core tank ) which will also plate out your waste silver ....
with home processing, it is mostly ph ( if you mix spent developer with your spent stop and spent fixer remover and dilute everything is ph-neutral ) and the silver which kills the baceria that live in your septic tank.

good luck!

john

Thanks, John.
I bookmarked the above link. I also discovered that Kern County has a special waste facility in Bakersfield that could be utilized. This also got me thinking about a new special waste facility recently opened in Mojave (only 15 miles from me). I was under the impression that it was strictly for computer waste, but maybe they handle chemicals as well... something else for me to check into.

Best regards.

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

Daniel Lawton said:
I have a septic system and dump all B+W chem down the drain with no problems. If I am doing a high volume of prints with more water use than usual, I put a pail under the print washer and throw it on the flower beds so I don't overwhelm the septic tank. The plants haven't died so far. For more toxic stuff like E-6 bleach I collect it in bottles after use.

Thanks, Daniel. This sounds very positive.
After 16 years in this house, I've have to have the main tank pumped a few times, and every year or so, have to add some caustic soda to the leech tank to keep the drainage working properly. Needless to say, I am more than a little paranoid about the septic system, thus my concerns about dumping just about anything into it.

Best regards.

jp80874 · Feb 5, 2006

Hi Bob,

We are on a well and septic here in northern OH. I develop 8x10 B&W negatives in a Jobo and have designed in the capacity to print up to 20x24, though I am only up to 16x20 now. The well water is tested safe to drink, but tastes bad. We have ten gallons of drinking and cooking water delivered on average a week for two of us. The service also delivers distilled water. I do the final film developing wash by dipping the five sheets one at a time in a gallon of distilled water with a couple of drops of Photo Flo.

All liquids go down the drain except fixer. I hold spent fixer in one gallon jugs. I dont know if you have any schools near you with darkrooms. I am retired and take photo classes at the local university twice a week. They encourage students with home darkrooms to save the environment and dump fixer in their processing system. I joked about supporting them with silver. They said the silver from two years of their darkrooms with 30 enlargers had paid for two water filters. You might check for any local (your definition of local may vary from city folk) schools, universities or photo labs. I have heard that many photo labs are willing to do this, but have no experience.

Good luck. I feel it is really worth it to be able to print your own large negatives. Others must think so because I have been invited to do three solo shows and participate in a couple of group shows in the past year. I only do B&W because I am 85% colorblind. I have the impression that color chemicals may be more toxic. Best ask others on that.

John Powers

ccbob · Feb 5, 2006

jp80874 said:
Hi Bob,

We are on a well and septic here in northern OH. I develop 8x10 B&W negatives in a Jobo and have designed in the capacity to print up to 20x24, though I am only up to 16x20 now. The well water is tested safe to drink, but tastes bad. We have ten gallons of drinking and cooking water delivered on average a week for two of us. The service also delivers distilled water. I do the final film developing wash by dipping the five sheets one at a time in a gallon of distilled water with a couple of drops of Photo Flo.

All liquids go down the drain except fixer. I hold spent fixer in one gallon jugs. I dont know if you have any schools near you with darkrooms. I am retired and take photo classes at the local university twice a week. They encourage students with home darkrooms to save the environment and dump fixer in their processing system. I joked about supporting them with silver. They said the silver from two years of their darkrooms with 30 enlargers had paid for two water filters. You might check for any local (your definition of local may vary from city folk) schools, universities or photo labs. I have heard that many photo labs are willing to do this, but have no experience.

Good luck. I feel it is really worth it to be able to print your own large negatives. Others must think so because I have been invited to do three solo shows and participate in a couple of group shows in the past year. I only do B&W because I am 85% colorblind. I have the impression that color chemicals may be more toxic. Best ask others on that.

John Powers

Thanks, John.
Since posting this, I have found a few other sources that also mention dumping all but the fixer down the drain, I assume the diluted nature of developers and such, may have something to do with this. :confused:
I certainly like the idea of the dunk bath method for the final wash, as excessive water into the septic tank has caused me problems in the past.

I have a couple of community colleges not too far away, but I'm not sure they are still offering film-based labs. Something that would be worth looking into.

And I should have mentioned earlier, this would only be for B&W... I'll leave the E-6 processing to the pros.

Best regards.

jp80874 · Feb 5, 2006

Bob,

Just a clarification. I use a good bit of water. Before the dunk bath you mentioned the film in the Jobo has had ten 350ml rinses over a twenty minute wash cycle. The Jobo itself takes several gallons to maintain even temp. No chemicals get in that water but it is volume going down the drain.

The prints is where I use a lot of water. I have big trays and two washers. For short sessions a five slot 16x20 Nova, for long sessions a Calumet 12 slot 20x24. I fill the washer tank with the drain closed and put prints in as I process. Then I run water at a trickle for about an hour or more if I am out.

You might want to consider a separate drain for the water volume bypassing the septic system. Depending on gravity or pump, you could easily water the grass, flowers or desert. I dont see it as waste or pollution. The fix goes to school. I am taking water out of the ground and then putting it back in. The ground is the filter. We have a half acre pond 30 feet from the house and it is full of very lively fish and busy heron. The pond is a lot more interesting than television and the scene or channel is constantly changing. I dont seem to be doing too much damage.

John Powers

Monophoto · Feb 5, 2006

We had a septic system in our former home, and we also had a drywell for disposal of gray water from the laundry. I routinely dumped chemicals from the darkroom into both systems with no problems. Black and whilte chemicals are generally quite innocuous. I used to do color processing, and my recollection is that both E-6 and Cibachrome chemical sets were designed so that the waste-products were self-neutralizing. But the major issue is volume - the normal household waste flow with four residents in the home will so greatly dilute the relatively small amount of darkroom waste to the point where it is not going to do any harm.

The issue with black and white chemicals, as others have noted, is the silver content of the fixer. If your volume is small, you can probably get away with simply dumping it down the drain. Using steel wool to precipitate out some of the silver is admirable, but it may not be necessary.

Incidentally, years ago one of the photo magazines did an article on recycling silver - they suggested doing the steel wool thing, and then using coffee filters to capture and dewater the sludge. Finally, after several batches of sludge have accumulated, they suggested using a blow torch to melt down the sludge to create solid sliver. They also pointed out that while this will make you feel good about protecting the environment, the market price for recycled silver is too low to make the process financially attractive.

Is it worth it?

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