Is it true that Tura is closing down ?

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 7, 2005

Hello !
If yes, it is sad, because they manufactured the Rollei R3 film....
What a short lived film !
I've just orderd some to test.... Grrrr !
As we are at it, any news about Forte ? Will they survive ? and produce their own brand or will they be confined to white bow and unbranded films and papers ?
TIA !

rjr · Mar 7, 2005

GeorgesGiralt said:
Hello !
If yes, it is sad,

Well, they are in Insolvency, just like Forte and Ilford were since October. They have too much debt, their banks denied further support.

If they find no new financier, they´ll have to close, and looking at what Tura is doing -just cutting what others produce-, in my opionion they have no chance of surviving.

GeorgesGiralt said:
because they manufactured the Rollei R3 film....

No, they didn´t They probably cut it into 35mm (not 120 and sheet!) - and even denied every involvment in it.

GeorgesGiralt said:
As we are at it, any news about Forte ? Will they survive ?

Look at what Mirko and J&C announced on the internet (Here, at fotoimpex.de and other places) - they are back in production and will be reevaluated in summer. So far it looks like they are making money, and only this is what counts.

claytume · Mar 7, 2005

rjr said:
If they find no new financier, they´ll have to close, and looking at what Tura is doing -just cutting what others produce-, in my opionion they have no chance of surviving.

I think there's a good chance Tura will survive, although they don't make any product they are one of the biggest suppliers to the minilab business worldwide. Paper consumption in minilabs is huge and big business.

Clayton

rjr · Mar 7, 2005

Clayton,

I am not sure they are that big - according to local newspapers, the whole crew is 33 employees incl. administrations.

One BIG downside is, that they are fully depending on Agfa - last fall when Ilford and Forte failed to satisfy the market, demand on Agfa stuff rose and they prefered to deliver themselves and Tura was out-of-stock on bw materials for months!

Plus, in recent years Agfa went into the private-label system on their own, installing confectioning plants in the US (and elsewhere) to satisfy the needs of the *marts on the North American continent.

According to a quote on a german forum, Maco already dumped them, they found someone else cutting the expensive traffic survaillance stuff aka R³.

claytume · Mar 8, 2005

rjr said:
Clayton,

I am not sure they are that big - according to local newspapers, the whole crew is 33 employees incl. administrations.

One BIG downside is, that they are fully depending on Agfa - last fall when Ilford and Forte failed to satisfy the market, demand on Agfa stuff rose and they prefered to deliver themselves and Tura was out-of-stock on bw materials for months!

Plus, in recent years Agfa went into the private-label system on their own, installing confectioning plants in the US (and elsewhere) to satisfy the needs of the *marts on the North American continent.

Interesting stuff!

I see Tura as being very much like Nike, a small company with no manufacturing plant but huge sales worldwide. This is supposedly the model of the future for many businesses.

I have an interest in Tura carrying on because I use both their B&W and colour roll papers. So far I haven't had any problems with supply. I was told by my supplier that they also repackage Ilford paper and film. I suspect they use anything they can get their hands on.

Clayton

Fotohuis · Mar 8, 2005

The situation at Tura is critical. Same story for Leica. Further I agree about the possibilities with RJR that it will be difficult for Tura to go on. It's always very difficult to predict where the problems are located.

About the R3: Indeed only the 135-36 format is cutted and packed at the Tura plant and indeed an alternative is already found.
There will be no problem in R3 delivery.

Robert

www.FotohuisRoVo.nl

Nick Zentena · Mar 8, 2005

claytume said:
I
I have an interest in Tura carrying on because I use both their B&W and colour roll papers. So far I haven't had any problems with supply. I was told by my supplier that they also repackage Ilford paper and film. I suspect they use anything they can get their hands on.

Isn't the roll paper just Agfa?

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2005

If Tura is closing thats only 3 years after CPAC Inc an America company aquired a large stake holding in the company:
http://www.cpac.com/pressreleases/fiscal_2002/turapma202.asp

edz · Mar 8, 2005

rjr said:
One BIG downside is, that they are fully depending on Agfa - last fall when Ilford and Forte failed to satisfy the market, demand on Agfa stuff rose and they prefered to deliver themselves and Tura was out-of-stock on bw materials for months!

This was a "self-made" problem. Ilford was prepared to deliver. Agfa was prepared to deliver. Nobody to my knowledge starved Tura. They seemed to be on a crash diet. Out of cash or out of credit? Tura, so the grapevine, only purchased a jumbo after they had committed orders and, of course, had no more to meet additional demand. Tura's move to request protection from their creditors has clearly been brewing for some time and I suspect the lawyer choosen to head the company elected, following legal and not business instinct, to forgo business than be open to the threat of jail---- in Germany continuing to order products beyond the point where it can proved one could pay for them is a criminal offense of fraud. German jails are filled with failed businessmen and real estate speculators. In Germany, afterall, money and capital is sacred and life is cheap

jd callow · Mar 8, 2005

edz said:
In Germany, afterall, money and capital is sacred and life is cheap

Hmmm. Sounds familiar.

claytume · Mar 8, 2005

Nick Zentena said:
Isn't the roll paper just Agfa?

Sure is but at a much better price than dealing through Agfa, I think Tura can do that because of the volumes it works with.

Clayton

edz · Mar 9, 2005

claytume said:
Sure is but at a much better price than dealing through Agfa, I think Tura can do that because of the volumes it works with.

Clayton

Tura can sell Agfa paper cheaper than Agfa because they want to--- and because in some cases have to in order to make a sale. Agfa does not even really want to bother cutting paper into individual sheets but only rolls. Agfa RA-4 paper, for instance, is no longer available from Agfa/Agfa Photo as sheets but only standardised rolls. Tura sell boxed Agfa, Fuji and Mitsubishi papers in sheets and rolls. Margins on film and paper are very good so there is a lot of room, especially in cut-down material, to make a profit.

The market is, however, rapidly changing. Fomer "eastern block" players like Foma and Forte are now within the borders of the European Union. Total demand for film has been declining and the market and formats for photographic papers is in transition. Through the weak U.S. dollar and Kodak's global homogenization of pricing, their papers too have become attractive on the German market.

Agfa C-41 negative material is private label boxes is now under the 1 EURO mark in the drugstore (e.g. DM Paradise KB-135/36 is, I think, 0.95 EURO in single packages and much cheaper in the larger boxes).

claytume · Mar 9, 2005

edz said:
Tura can sell Agfa paper cheaper than Agfa because they want to--- and because in some cases have to in order to make a sale. Agfa does not even really want to bother cutting paper into individual sheets but only rolls. Agfa RA-4 paper, for instance, is no longer available from Agfa/Agfa Photo as sheets but only standardised rolls. Tura sell boxed Agfa, Fuji and Mitsubishi papers in sheets and rolls. Margins on film and paper are very good so there is a lot of room, especially in cut-down material, to make a profit.

The market is, however, rapidly changing. Fomer "eastern block" players like Foma and Forte are now within the borders of the European Union. Total demand for film has been declining and the market and formats for photographic papers is in transition. Through the weak U.S. dollar and Kodak's global homogenization of pricing, their papers too have become attractive on the German market.

Agfa C-41 negative material is private label boxes is now under the 1 EURO mark in the drugstore (e.g. DM Paradise KB-135/36 is, I think, 0.95 EURO in single packages and much cheaper in the larger boxes).

Anyone want to predict where this will go?

I used to buy reasonable quantities of Forte roll paper but their prices went up and delivery was erratic so I moved to Tura whose prices and delivery have been excellent for the last few years.

Will I be forced to buy Forte again?

Incidently someone in the know told me the cost of producing photo paper was less than one tenth the retail price. I can believe it when I get Tura (which is Agfa) for less than a third of Agfa retail price. Both of them plus my supplier are still making money on the deal.

Clayton

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 9, 2005

Hi Clayton !
Do you want a list of "things" with retail prices unrelated to production prices ?
Cars, computers, TV sets, and quite all manufactured goods....
Even on services, the price tag reflects what the customer can pay, not the actual prices plus a "normal" benefit. Otherwise, every time you get a discount, the seller will loose money ;-) and disapear, if wwe follow what we have been told in school.
I my opinion, the problem with Forte was that the benefit was not made at the factory but along the ath the product cross between them and you. I hope that buying from "near factory" like at Fotoimpex will turn Forte a profitable business and we will get our film and papers during a long time.....

claytume · Mar 9, 2005

GeorgesGiralt said:
Hi Clayton !
Do you want a list of "things" with retail prices unrelated to production prices ?
Cars, computers, TV sets, and quite all manufactured goods....
Even on services, the price tag reflects what the customer can pay, not the actual prices plus a "normal" benefit. Otherwise, every time you get a discount, the seller will loose money ;-) and disapear, if wwe follow what we have been told in school.
I my opinion, the problem with Forte was that the benefit was not made at the factory but along the ath the product cross between them and you. I hope that buying from "near factory" like at Fotoimpex will turn Forte a profitable business and we will get our film and papers during a long time.....

George

yes I know what you're saying, it seems to me someone like Tura should be able to survive because there's enough margin for them to make money and still undercut retail.

If what you're saying is right about Forte it's all the middlemen pulling these long established businesses down. So maybe, and they're probably doing this, a new distribution model is required with less consumed in the middle.

Is this how J&C operates? Direct purchase from the factory and pass savings onto customers. To be worthwhile to the factory it would require large stock purchases.

For me I'm worried the economics of using conventional roll paper will disappear and I'll have to start using inkjet.

Clayton

edz · Mar 10, 2005

claytume said:
Anyone want to predict where this will go?

Anyone got a good lead on this week's lotto numbers?

Will I be forced to buy Forte again?

Nobody forces YOU to buy any photographic materials from any vendor. We are not in China!

Incidently someone in the know told me the cost of producing photo paper was less than one tenth the retail price.

Depends upon how one caculates the "cost".. A large chunk of the cost of producing papers and other photographic materials is fixed in the cost of the facillity. The marginal costs of labour and input materials to produce a film are very very tiny. The problem is: these factories don't scale that well. The move of Kodak into their new coating facillity was part of getting the scale right and being able to better manage their resources.

With factories like Efke or Forte the fixed non-labour costs are quite low and they've been working to slash their labour costs (scaling by labour). The main threat is the opportunity costs of continuning the operation. Argenta in Munich just as Stirling in Bombay found the value of their property significantly higher than the value as a production input.

edz · Mar 10, 2005

claytume said:
George

yes I know what you're saying, it seems to me someone like Tura should be able to survive because there's enough margin for them to make money and still undercut retail.

Tura was NOT about undercutting retail. Their business was about putting film in OEM boxes.

Is this how J&C operates? Direct purchase from the factory and pass savings onto customers. To be worthwhile to the factory it would require large stock purchases.

That's also how Freestyle works. Efke, Forte and Foma is typically sold though shops that went direct. I think Foma wants a $10K USD order to get the juices flowing.. Since customers (like you) want to get the absolute cheapest materials they need to compete and press the manufacturers to keep prices down to maintain their margins since they must compete with Agfa, Fuji and Kodak which have much better developed products and refined distribution network . Agfa, Fuji and Kodak have, on the other hand, lower marginal costs in their production and higher reserves so its not really much of a contest... The big league players can always be cheaper!

For Ekfe, Foma and Forte to survive they must redefine their products to do better what the mainline players (Agfa, Fuji, Kodak) don't or can't do. If they don't understand how to morph themselves into a nische then they will not survive.

For me I'm worried the economics of using conventional roll paper will disappear and I'll have to start using inkjet.

What't the issue? In the whole of the past century photographic productss and services have never been as inexpensive as they are today.

Still too expensive..

Then start using Inkjet.. print on recycled newsprint... And print less... Using less paper saves money!

claytume · Mar 10, 2005

Fotohuis said:
The situation at Tura is critical. Same story for Leica. Further I agree about the possibilities with RJR that it will be difficult for Tura to go on.

Robert

www.FotohuisRoVo.nl

Robert

can you direct me to a press release or source of your information, I've done some searching on the net and can't find anything.

I contacted my supplier and he said there a no problems at all buying from Tura and he isn't aware of any problems.

Clayton

claytume · Mar 10, 2005

edz said:
Since customers (like you) want to get the absolute cheapest materials they need to compete and press the manufacturers to keep prices down to maintain their margins since they must compete with Agfa, Fuji and Kodak which have much better developed products and refined distribution network .

What't the issue? In the whole of the past century photographic productss and services have never been as inexpensive as they are today.

Still too expensive..

Then start using Inkjet.. print on recycled newsprint... And print less... Using less paper saves money!

Edward

you're German right?

Fotohuis · Mar 10, 2005

It's in the local German newspaper. (I am from the Netherlands but SPUR is also located near Düren so it's in this region bads news of course)

Here is the link:

[URL=http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=459766&_wo=Lokales<img title=]http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=459766&_wo=Lokales<img title=

Best regards,

Robert

edz · Mar 10, 2005

Fotohuis said:
It's in the local German newspaper. (I am from the Netherlands but SPUR is also located near Düren so it's in this region bads news of course)

Robert

Are you Vonked? Spending too much time at the coffee houses?

What does the economic fortunes of Tura have to do directly with SPUR? Schain's business has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Tura beyond renting room for his lab on their property. Since the property was not destroyed in an atomic blast there is little to assume that it will disappear irrespective of the fortunes of Tura. And just as he moved there last year he could, should the entire town of Dueren be relocated--- as some German politicians as well as so-called leading "economics" seem to indirectly suggest for most of the country to feed the endless gread of some German multinationals unsatisfied with just record profits --- to China or some other country where worker's rights and unions are not needed (being a communist paradise any forms of syndicalism or other worker's rights movements are little more than economic sabatoge and counter-revolutionary activies which, like all acts of treason, result in death), he can move again....

Demand for his traffic and commercial developers has, in fact, never been higher!

edz · Mar 10, 2005

claytume said:
Edward

you're German right?

No

Fotohuis · Mar 10, 2005

Yes, indeed. I am from the Fotohuis RoVo company and I thought you were located in Switzerland.

Apart from the political statement, indeed Mr. Schain is fully independent of Tura. He's only renting one building on their plant.
We are the distributor for SPUR in the Netherlands. They have some very nice products.

We will see what is going to happen with Tura. Hopefully they have some other possibilities.

Robert

rjr · Mar 10, 2005

Edward,

edz said:
The market is, however, rapidly changing. Fomer "eastern block" players like Foma and Forte are now within the borders of the European Union. Total demand for film has been declining and the market and formats for photographic papers is in transition..

Just last year Foma and Fuji made an agreement - Foma built a confection line to cut Fuji CN films and color papers, their CN film "Supria" is made in Japan.

edz said:
Through the weak U.S. dollar and Kodak's global homogenization of pricing, their papers too have become attractive on the German market..

Is there a publicly known reason why Kodak Supra Endura is only half the price of Ultra Endura?

Is it true that Tura is closing down ?

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