Is it the right thing to learn with old paper?

leeturner · Feb 4, 2006

A quick question. Got my darkroom set up about a week ago. For printing I've been using some paper I got off ebay, Agfa MC RC. I also have a couple of other boxes of Ilford paper which I've picked up along the way. Some of these packets have been opened and one box I binned when I discovered it was fogged.

I'm going through an extreme learning stage, namely starting from scratch and am going through sheets of paper like there's no tomorrow. What effects could I be getting from using old/unknown history paper, e.g. contrast, responsiveness etc. and could this lead to unpredictable results that I will think are normal due to not using new paper stock?

I know the easy answer is just to buy some new paper but with the amount of paper being sold on ebay I'm sure there are a few people in this situation.

As an aside I've noticed that if you shop around then new paper can be bought for only a couple of pounds more than some of the stuff being sold preowned.

Nick Zentena · Feb 4, 2006

I don't think old paper is a good choice if you aren't comfortable with everything. If the paper is bad will you know? Or will you end up chasing your tail trying to fix what you think is a problem ?

It's like anything else. Working with wonky tools tends to require more knowledge/skill then working with good stuff.

Put the old paper in storage for awhile. Get yourself a box or two of fresh paper. Once you have a reasonable bit of expierence then pull the old paper out.

The paper may be good it may be bad but you'll be in a better position to judge.

John Bartley · Feb 4, 2006

I second what Nick says. As both a real newbie amateur and a person who like experimenting (maybe more than I should), I would advise learning a basic procedure with new materials and then experiment, knowing that your basic procedure is correct.

cheers

Dave Miller · Feb 4, 2006

Come on Lee, you know the answer to this without asking. When you order those new chemicals from Nova they will do you a very good deal on a box of Ilford 10x8 MG R/C; about £20 I think ; and it will be post free since you have that covered on the chemicals. NOVA

fschifano · Feb 4, 2006

Well, I guess that's part of your learning experience. Don't buy old paper unless you can get it for next to nothing. But seriously, I'd say look around for the most inexpensive new paper you can find. Freestyle in California and Adorama in NY have house branded RC, VC papers at very attractive prices. Adorama's is very good for the money and plenty good to learn on. I can't comment on Freestyle's papers though I suspect they'd be equally good. You are going to go through a lot of paper while you are learning to print. Might as well keep the costs down while you get your basic technique under control.

Dave Miller · Feb 4, 2006

fschifano's right Lee; better make that three packs.

leeturner · Feb 4, 2006

Dave Miller said:
Come on Lee, you know the answer to this without asking. When you order those new chemicals from Nova they will do you a very good deal on a box of Ilford 10x8 MG R/C; about £20 I think ; and it will be post free since you have that covered on the chemicals. NOVA

Dave, the question was partly rhetorical as I ordered the chemicals and a box of 10x8 MG (yep £20) from nova about 15 minutes ago.

As a novice to the darkroom I have a lot of questions (as Dave knows from his PMs ) and whilst APUG is one of the most helpful sites around, there are new users who are sometimes reluctant to ask basic questions as they might look a bit stupid. I've found myself in that position. I like to come across threads that answer questions that I would like to know the answer to but would never have asked. A lot of people are taking advantage of cheap darkroom gear and are buying packages off auction sites that include paper, or are buying paper of ebay and hopefully replies from Apug members can steer them in the right direction. I lurked on this site for almost a year before posting and still search the threads for answers.

Maybe we need a beginners forum where new users can ask questions and previous answers can be archived and this can form some form of beginners FAQ section. With the wealth of experience here it could form a very beneficial source of information. e.g. making your first print/developing first film. Using multigrade paper etc. I know that some of this can be gleaned from Ilfords site but first hand knowledge and advice is invaluable.

gainer · Feb 4, 2006

Test your safelight too. You should use new paper for this test. Lay a piece of a piece on the easel with a coin on it and leave it a minute or two with only the safelight on. Develop and see if the coin left its mark. If you can see where the coin was, don't use any more paper until you fix the safelight, or you'll be chasing phantoms.

leeturner · Feb 4, 2006

gainer said:
Test your safelight too. You should use new paper for this test. Lay a piece of a piece on the easel with a coin on it and leave it a minute or two with only the safelight on. Develop and see if the coin left its mark. If you can see where the coin was, don't use any more paper until you fix the safelight, or you'll be chasing phantoms.

That brings up another OT question. How bright is your darkroom with the safelight on? Is it purely a practical thing of bright enough until your paper fogs within a certain time? I've got a sodium safelight (Duka) but it's low enough that I can't see much of the print forming in the developer. That doesn't bother me as I can't be tempted to pull the print too early.

Dave Miller · Feb 4, 2006

I stand corrected Lee, you are quite correct; in fact I am 'umbled, most 'umbled. :rolleyes:

leeturner · Feb 4, 2006

Dave Miller said:
I stand corrected Lee, you are quite correct; in fact I am 'umbled, most 'umbled. :rolleyes:

Sorry Dave , I've just edited that post because it sounded completely different from how I meant it. I do really appreciate everyones advice and the one thing that makes it different on APUG is that there is a lot of experience as opposed to theory amongst the members.
I really think that a beginners forum would be a good addition and stop a lot of duplication of basic questions.

Bob F. · Feb 4, 2006

leeturner said:
That brings up another OT question. How bright is your darkroom with the safelight on? Is it purely a practical thing of bright enough until your paper fogs within a certain time? I've got a sodium safelight (Duka) but it's low enough that I can't see much of the print forming in the developer. That doesn't bother me as I can't be tempted to pull the print too early.

Yup - test it to be safe for twice the time it takes you to expose and process a print and you will be fine. Kodak and Ilford both have PDFs you can download that include a safelight test process. My DIY LED safelight can go very bright - about twice as bright as a Duka 50 on full blast - without fogging for >15 minutes, but I turn it down or I can't see properly to dodge/burn...

Have fun, Bob.

Matt5791 · Feb 4, 2006

Lee - I am in a similar position and have only had my darkroom for about 4 months.

I have decided to stick to one paper, one paper developer, and also pretty much stick to 2 film emulsions: Ilford Delta 400; Kodak TriX. Two quite different emulsions of the same speed. I have also decided to just stick with Paterson Aculux2 film developer.

This way I hope will really help to improve my printing technique without adding unnecessary variables.

For Paper I have been sticking to two types: Ilford Multigrade and Kentmere VC Select - the equivilent of Ilford multigrade from Kentmere.

most recently I have stuck with the Kentmere.

As everyone else says it helps to get all the practical things right too like ensuring the safelight is safe (see the kodak test on their website) and that you have no light leaks etc, otherwise these things will obviously stifle your progress.

Matt

Matt

leeturner · Feb 4, 2006

Thanks for the replies. For £20 per 100 sheet box of 10x8 it doesn't make sense to use unknown quality of paper. The daft thing is people are paying more than that on ebay once you factor in postage costs.

pmu · Feb 4, 2006

I asked that same question a month ago -- and I (and my friend) bought 3000 sheets of about 10 years old 24x30cm ilford MG3 RC papers ....costed 300 euros. Performs just superbly even if I was warned a lot that it would definitely not work... I'm not advising to buy old papers without testing it first (like I did)... I'm just saying that I trusted the seller and and now I have tons of papers to learn with (to see my pictures, see my signature)

pentaxuser · Feb 4, 2006

leeturner said:
That brings up another OT question. How bright is your darkroom with the safelight on? Is it purely a practical thing of bright enough until your paper fogs within a certain time? I've got a sodium safelight (Duka) but it's low enough that I can't see much of the print forming in the developer. That doesn't bother me as I can't be tempted to pull the print too early.

A couple of things really. Some of the faults on old paper are hard to recognise especially if it is unfamiliar. So you may not always be able to tell as a beginner. I was given old Kodak VCRC paper along with other bits and pieces. It looked OK if a little soft and warm toned when printing at grade 2. I discovered the look indicated paper which had lost its variable contrast quality. It didn't matter what grade I printed at, it always came out the same.

So at today's prices in the U.K. I, like Dave, am at a loss to know why anybody risks secondhand paper especially when accompanied by the phrase"opened and a few sheets used".

On the DUKA, you may not have seen the threads on DUKAs but the bulbs are a king's ransom to buy new if yours goes. I have a DUKA and now keep it for colour work only.

There are plenty of good B&W safelights out there. I have an Ilford 902 secondhand.Its a 10 x 8 inch lamp with a lot of light in a 10ft x 8 ft darkroom. Easily as good as the DUKA even when its used at B&W illumination levels. It uses an ordinary 15W bulb but on a sticker on the outside seems to indicate that a 25W bulb is OK. It certainly wouldn't overheat it and I believe if you look on other threads, you'll see Les McLean mentioning that he uses 25 W bulbs and he's a stickler for safelight testing. In my size of darkroom I could read normal print with a 25W bulb.

I used Ilford when on a college course then got some Agfa when I started my own darkroom and was foolish enough to try secondhand Tetenal as well. The consequence was that chopping and changing I never knew where I was. It affected my learning process adversely and I regret not sticking to the one brand I started with, namely Ilford.

Pentaxuser

Les McLean · Feb 4, 2006

gainer said:
Test your safelight too. You should use new paper for this test. Lay a piece of a piece on the easel with a coin on it and leave it a minute or two with only the safelight on. Develop and see if the coin left its mark. If you can see where the coin was, don't use any more paper until you fix the safelight, or you'll be chasing phantoms.

Gainer, you are absolutely right to suggest a safelight test but I'm sorry to say that the method you suggest will prove nothing. Before laying the coins on the paper as you suggested you must first sensitise the paper as follows:-

Take the enlarger head to the top of the column and fully stop down the lens, set the timer for 1 second. Lay a reasonably sized piece of the paper to be tested on the base board, cover about 1/2" on the longest side with a piece of black card and using a pen mark 1" intervals along the paper that is not covered. Don't make the mark across the whole width of the paper, a small 1/4" mark will do.
Cover the first step so that it receives no exposure and then proceed to give a series of 1 second exposures along the whole length of the test strip using the short pen marks as a guide. You should make 10 to 12 steps on this test strip, if there is no tone on the paper increase the time and if there is too much tone, ie, no white steps cover the lens with a piece of tissue and start again.
Process the paper in your normal manner give a brief wash and dry it either in a microwave or with a hair dryer. When you examine it you are looking for the first sign of delicate tone on the paper, this should be clear to see when compared to the white strip that was covered by the card during the exposure. When you locate this make a note of the step. Lets say the first tone appeared in 4 seconds, this indicates that the paper is sensitised at 3 seconds the step immediately before the grey tone.

To do the safelight test you need to give the paper 3 seconds with the enlarger set as it was for the test described above and then place a row of coins along the paper, cover all but one with a card and leave for 2 minutes. After 2 minutes move the card to leave 2 coins uncovered and so on. I usually test my safelights for up to 20 minutes exposure and do this once each year. I would also advise that you test the area on the base baord and in the area that you process the prints. It may seem to be a boring thing to do but I can assure you that it is worthwhile for safelight fog can just creep up on you and is very subtle but it will degrade the highlights. It is also worth noting that different papers need different safelights, some need amber and some need red. I have two sets of those colours in my darkroom.

gnashings · Feb 4, 2006

My photography, much like most things now are on a bit of shoe-string budget. As such, the draw of using anything that comes free or almost free is very big. And I have to admit that I have been using old paper, anything I could get my hands on.
As could be expected, the results varied. If i had to go back in time, I think I would do it the same way. I have got decent results, I have had to scrap some - as could be expected.
I think the answer to the original question is that... well, there is no answer. The paper could be perfectly fine, or it could be degraded in many different ways, more or less perceptible. I think in a situation other the very beginning of learning, I would say go for it - you have the negatives, you can always go back if not pleased with your results. The thing that really raises a flag in my mind is aht you are learning, and by the sounds of it, you are at the beginning of your "exploration". At that stage, there are more than enough pit-falls and traps waiting for you just from the very nature of learning. Mistakes will be made. Unfortunately, whenever learning anything, it is adviseable to remove as many variable from the process as possible. That way, any results (and mistakes) can be investigated much more easily, and thus learned from. Throwing more variables into the equation is a sure way to frustration. I would think that you would be well advised to pick up a batch which is a known quantity, and try to stick to it for a while. Perhaps store your other papers in a cold place, and once you feel more confident of your abilities you can go back to it. Once you have a little more experience and confidence you will be able to look at the results and say:"Yep, that's the paper", instead of going out of your mind trying to backtrack to the root of your mistakes, when you didn't make any. On the other hand, when you do make mistakes,you will know it was you, and that you have to correct them, rather than wondering if maybe the paper let you down.
Sorry about the long-winded response, I was just thinking "out loud".
Best of luck,

Peter.

leeturner · Feb 5, 2006

I've been using some Agfa MC RC paper and it's seemed OK but yesterday tried out a new box of Ilford MG RC that I picked up a couple of weeks ago. The reason that I haven't been using it is that it's 5x7 (the only box they had left at my local camera shop) and with printing medium format I prefer 10x8 so that I can get I decent sized 7.5x7.5 print. The one thing I noticed immediately was the brightness of the paper base compared to the Agfa, the white is really white. Is this a normal difference between the two as I seem to remember reading somewhere that Agfa had a creamier colour base.

Anyway I've taken all of the advice to heart and have ordered some new paper (only 1 box Dave, the credit cards groaning already) and reprint the stuff I've been doing over the past week. I'm going to stick with Ilford MG RC for a while and ignore the warmtone, cooltone etc. until I get used to the characteristics of that one paper. In addition I have to get used to a paper that's going to be manufactured and available in the future which is another reason for not using the Agfa.

Simon R Galley · Feb 6, 2006

Dear Lee,

Send your address to my APUG e.mail and I will send you the MULTIGRADE printing manual, it should save you a few sheets....

Simon From ILFORD Photo

df cardwell · Feb 6, 2006

When you're out of money, you can make more.

When you are out of time, you're done. No more.

When you have a chance to buy time, do it.

Never waste it.

If you are serious about learning to print,
buy good, fresh materials. Be careful

Work slowly, and be patient. Enjoy it.

Wait until you're a cranky old timer to pinch pennies.

.

Paul Sorensen · Feb 6, 2006

I agree with the consensus that you get your feel wet, perhaps even thoroughly soaked, before going with older paper. After some bad eBay experiences, I have completely stopped buying older paper. It seems to me that paper is much less forgiving of age than film. Perhaps it is because you can overcome a little fog in your film, but not in your paper. Either way, buy good paper!

Shelly Grimson · Feb 6, 2006

I agree that one should use the best materials to get the best results but I personally never learn my lesson. I just bought a freezer full of Portriga rapid ( I had to take the paper as a condition of buying the freezer!). I generally stumble through the process of getting a satisfactory print anyway, so I'm willing to do testing on all varieties of papers that I have acquired. The one consideration that is important is if you want to make a series or complete edition it is important to get all the prints uniform since some galleries I've dealt with insist on that.
I never lose the excitement of seeing the image come up, and using different papers and developers constantly renews my love the process. I know this breaks the rules of procedure but I am not really the scientific type of photographer. I am not proposing this to others, since it is often quite frustrating and wastes alot of time and energy, but its the way I do it

pentaxuser · Feb 6, 2006

Mr Moderator. Isn't there a case for placing Les' reply on safelight testing into the articles/how to/ beginner's section. Call the section what you will but if it is important enough for Les to give a reply then it's important enough to prevent it being hidden in a thread which may otherwise be its fate. Like a lot of other good and non controversial replies that appear.

Pentaxuser

MattKing · Feb 6, 2006

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Lee,

Send your address to my APUG e.mail and I will send you the MULTIGRADE printing manual, it should save you a few sheets....

Simon From ILFORD Photo

Simon:

Is this courtesy something that would extend to us poor souls in the colonies (specifically, in Canada).

After a lifetime of using Kodak, I am having to switch, and want to do it properly!

Matt

Is it the right thing to learn with old paper?

Moderator

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