Is it over for this lens element?

ColdEye · Jun 10, 2020

I found my canon 50/1.2 LTM in old camera bag, not used for more than a year. It didnt have haze last time I remember it, but now it has. I tried cleaning it with my breath and and a clean microfiber towel but it did not work. The haze is only on one side. Any other stuff I can try on this to clean it? I will try it with a roll of film and see if it is really bad, if not I might just live with it.

ic-racer · Jun 10, 2020

I got a Componon-S for $5 that looked like that. I t did clean up to be useable. I'm not familiar with that lens but you are sure it is not a doublet with a surface you are not cleaning.

ic-racer · Jun 10, 2020

Sometimes bright light can be misleading. For example these two Compoon lenses have been cleaned at least twice each. They make perfect prints and if you don't shine a bright light in the back of them, look clear.
Just last week I had a camera lens that was not quite as bad as these. I had two examples of the lens and setup a shot of a window 1/2 filling the frame and 1/2 black. With the same aperture, I made exposures with each lens. Afterward I used my densitometer to measure the black (clear) area adjacent the bright window. Both lenses recorded the same flare density in that shadow.
I'd try your lens at 1.4 against any other 50mm 1.4 lens you have with a similar test and see.

awty · Jun 10, 2020

I have a canon 50mm f1.8 ltm with similar on the inner element. Seems to be quite common with the canons.
I couldn't clean it, would need to be repolished with the right lens polishing machine if it could be cleaned at all. Probably better finding a new lens.
Don't leave lenses in the heat.

Grim Tuesday · Jun 10, 2020

My guess is that it had it last time you used it, you just didn't notice. It can be hard to tell sometimes without pointing it into a bright light, and if you didn't notice before, it probably doesn't have a major effect on image quality. Though, in my experience, haze is the worst of the horsemen of lens Apocalypse (fungus, separation, and scratches being the other 3). Anyways, try cleaning it with the following:

- 99% Isopropyl
- 3% Hydrogen peroxide
- 5% ammonia

Not all together, one at a time. If none of those work, I don't think anything will, short of repolishing. Hydrogen peroxide can sometimes work miracles on fungus and haze, though.

StepheKoontz · Jun 10, 2020

Haze IMHO is the worst killer of lens performance. Scratches have almost zero impact unless shooting into the light. I have had good luck removing haze, as a last ditch effort if the other chemicals mentioned don't work, with gentle application/polish with Cerium oxide using a Q-tip. It will likely remove the coating on that one surface (sometimes not if the haze is just on the surface of the coating) but IMHO one uncoated surface will have much less negative impact than haze will. Sometimes though the glass itself is etched, which isn't really salvageable.

awty · Jun 10, 2020

Grim Tuesday said:
My guess is that it had it last time you used it, you just didn't notice. It can be hard to tell sometimes without pointing it into a bright light, and if you didn't notice before, it probably doesn't have a major effect on image quality. Though, in my experience, haze is the worst of the horsemen of lens Apocalypse (fungus, separation, and scratches being the other 3). Anyways, try cleaning it with the following:

- 99% Isopropyl
- 3% Hydrogen peroxide
- 5% ammonia

Not all together, one at a time. If none of those work, I don't think anything will, short of repolishing. Hydrogen peroxide can sometimes work miracles on fungus and haze, though.

Even at equal proportions it did nothing on my inner element, soaking for some days.. Worth a try though
Mine was etched in and only way would be to polish with the appropriate polisher.

ColdEye · Jun 11, 2020

I tried it with some 91% alcohol, no change at all. I think this is it for this lens unless I polish it. Test roll was a bust, first time using steel reels and it did not go well lol.

shutterfinger · Jun 11, 2020

Polishing with whiting toothpaste is less likely to do harm than cerium oxide. Gentle rubbing with a cotton ball and little water is best, more water for less polishing action.

awty · Jun 11, 2020

You may find one going cheep with other issues and can simply swap the element, just be careful they are the same model. The old metal f1.8 is different to the newer version, not even the front element will fit.

rulnacco · Jun 12, 2020

If you really want to try to resurrect it--and maybe give it a bit more "character"--and the haze is only very thin/right on the surface, you *might* try giving it the lightest of polishes. Possibly the aluminium oxide or zirconium oxide powders sold here (https://www.willbell.com/ATMSupplies/ATM_Supplies.htm), used for grinding and polishing telescope lenses may be helpful. Maybe get a small sample of the finest grit, and give it a little wet rub and see what happens.

Donald Qualls · Jun 12, 2020

I wouldn't use even the 20 minute (graded by keeping only what stays suspended in water for twenty minutes after stirring) alox or zirconium oxide on a lens that's already been polished. I'd stick with polishing medium, tin oxide or cerium oxide rouge. To avoid changing the shape of the surface, it should preferably be used with a lap made of optical pitch and molded to the surface you'll be polishing (at least that's the way we did it when I put the parabolic figure in my telescope mirror -- eventually to an accuracy of a millionth of an inch or so). An amateur optician (one who makes telescope mirrors and lenses) could probably help a lot.

There's probably a local astronomy club in or near San Diego that includes at least one or two who've built their own telescopes. When I lived in Seattle, there was a club/group composed of just amateur telescope makers, a couple of whom were building scopes with refractive elements (mirrors are easier).

rulnacco · Jun 13, 2020

Hi, Donald! Thanks for an expert comment--and correction--on my suggestion above. I'd investigated these materials a while back with a view to making my own 4x5 ground glass, but didn't know entirely how these would work for what the original poster wanted. That's very useful information indeed, potentially, and I'll certainly keep it in mind for my own use. Cheers!

Nodda Duma · Jun 14, 2020

Zirconium oxide is used as a polishing agent. It has the buttery smooth feel of rouge but works as fast as cerium oxide (cerox), and without sleeks.

This, however, looks like buildup from outgassing, especially considering it hazed up in your bag. Makes sense that the alcohol wouldn’t work. Can you make a difference scratching the haze off with your fingernail? If so you can clean it off, and just need to find the right solvent. Acetone, denatured alcohol, naptha, etc. Try warm soap and water first. Use some slight pressure..

Donald Qualls · Jun 14, 2020

If it'll scratch with a fingernail, then you could probably remove it without solvents, using what manicurists call an "orange stick" -- a softwood (basswood, I think) dowel cut to a chisel shape. Soft enough it won't scratch the glass unless it catches a piece of harder grit (can't say for sure on coatings, some are very soft, some are as hard as glass).

Nodda Duma · Jun 14, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
If it'll scratch with a fingernail, then you could probably remove it without solvents, using what manicurists call an "orange stick" -- a softwood (basswood, I think) dowel cut to a chisel shape. Soft enough it won't scratch the glass unless it catches a piece of harder grit (can't say for sure on coatings, some are very soft, some are as hard as glass).

I'd be careful of that approach for the reasons you allude to. A stick might catch a particulate which will scratch the glass even if the wood won't, and there's no where for the particulate to go if it's embedded in the surface of the wood. The moisture and cloth used for a solvent or essentially flushing with warm soap and water reduces the risk by helping keep particulates away from the surface.

eli griggs · Jul 10, 2020

Eclipse lens clean fluid, and PEC pads, Naptha lighter fluid and Hydrogen Peroxide are are the cleaners I see being used on lens by the repair people I trust on Youtube, (Mikeno62 to start with) and I suggest you poke around there before taking drastic action.

I've recently started using the Eclipse and PEC pads, and the 2H2O (H.P.) quickly removed some fungus remains from a 135, I have been working on, though one element needed a bit longer in the 2H2O.

Another possibilities a lot of modern photographers won't recognize right away, is haze from smoker's tobacco, so keep that in mind when trying to diagnose 'haze', especially on enlarging lenses (real world experience here)

Cheers

ColdEye · Jul 11, 2020

I have tried Eclipse and peroxide, no dice. I did try it and the haze is so bad its like I am taking pictures with a lens that has vaseline smeared in front.

AnselMortensen · Jul 11, 2020

Have you inspected the lens element surfaces with high magnification?
I had a lens with what I thought was coating haze, but the glass was actually micro-pitted.
It looked a bit similar to yours...shot a test roll, and contrast was un-usably low, very flarey.
You might want to check it under high magnification...(and report back!)

Jon Goodman · Jul 11, 2020

If it is a doublet, then there is likelihood it may have cement problems. About 10 years ago I wrote a tutorial for a friend in Romania and his site is still active: http://fotomozaic.ro/artikel.php?s=1&categ=0 It is in English and like nearly everything else I've written has been plagiarized greatly. This lens element repair uses Canadian Balsam. I've seen others use UV watch crystal cement, however you should understand if a mistake is made using UV crystal cement, your element might be ruined whereas with Canadian Balsam you can easily fix any mistake and the refractive quality is excellent. Jon

flavio81 · Jul 13, 2020

Looks like the coating got damaged due to oxidation or whatever chemical reaction. I've seen some elements like that:

- One inside my Mamiya Six rangefinder

- Another in some Mamiya tlr 180/4.5 lenses and Mamiya 135/4.5

(see a pattern??)

- Another in a Nikkor-H 300/4.5, element most close to the image plane.

- Many Olympus Trip 35 cameras i've seen with similar damage.

I think this is chemical damage or decomposition/degradation of the coating.

Nodda Duma said:
Zirconium oxide is used as a polishing agent. It has the buttery smooth feel of rouge but works as fast as cerium oxide (cerox), and without sleeks..

Oh Emperor Nodda Duma, master of all things Optical!! Where can I get Zirconium Oxide?

John Will · Jul 13, 2020

[QUOTE="Nodda Duma, master of all things Optical!! Where can I get Zirconium Oxide?[/QUOTE]

Here:
https://www.willbell.com/ATMSupplies/ATM_Supplies.htm
Look towards bottom of page.

flavio81 · Jul 13, 2020

John Will said:
[QUOTE="Nodda Duma, master of all things Optical!! Where can I get Zirconium Oxide?

Here:
https://www.willbell.com/ATMSupplies/ATM_Supplies.htm
Look towards bottom of page.[/QUOTE]
OMG

Optics seems to be the hardest hobby i would attempt. The hardest!!

Optics > chemistry > electronics > computing

Thus i am in the software industry.

Donald Qualls · Jul 14, 2020

flavio81 said:
Optics seems to be the hardest hobby i would attempt. The hardest!!

Optics > chemistry > electronics > computing

Optics isn't that hard. The microinch tolerances on surfaces are deceiving; you can easily verify and measure radii and surfaces to the required tolerances with homemade tools depending on standard manufacturing precision. When I made my telescope mirror, my Foucault tester depended on common 1/4" 20tpi all-thread rod and blind nuts, nesting sizes of hobby brass tubing, a razor blade made for a paint scraper, and model aircraft plywood. With it, I was able to figure the mirror to better than 1/5 wavelength of the yellow LED I used in it. It required care and patience of the same kind that leads from a straight print to a fine print (albeit applied over a longer time frame, given I had to wait 24 hours for the lap to press between polishing sessions).

jvo · Jul 14, 2020

flavio81 said:
... Optics seems to be the hardest hobby i would attempt. The hardest!!

Optics > chemistry > electronics > computing Thus i am in the software industry.

Donald Qualls said:
Optics isn't that hard. The microinch tolerances on surfaces are deceiving; you can easily verify and measure radii and surfaces to the required tolerances with homemade tools depending on standard manufacturing precision. When I made my telescope mirror, my Foucault tester depended on common 1/4" 20tpi all-thread rod and blind nuts, nesting sizes of hobby brass tubing, a razor blade made for a paint scraper, and model aircraft plywood. With it, I was able to figure the mirror to better than 1/5 wavelength of the yellow LED I used in it. It required care and patience of the same kind that leads from a straight print to a fine print (albeit applied over a longer time frame, given I had to wait 24 hours for the lap to press between polishing sessions).

Donald, I dare say you proved "flavio81" point on a rather simple task!

Is it over for this lens element?

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