Is it okay to show Nazi items here on APUG

P C Headland · Oct 28, 2006

Sean

Would it be possible to "move" controversial pictures behind a secondary link, such that people would have to acknowledge the content and type of photo before viewing it. I am uncomfortable with a minority of people (those that report an image or other content) in effect controlling what the majority may see.

It would seem (on a simplistic level) to cater for both sides - you're not censoring the image, but you are giving those of a more sensitive disposition the opportunity to not see something they may not wish to see. You could come up with some basic categories (nudity, war images, etc), and then a comment from the moderators as to the specific content.

mark · Oct 28, 2006

That is one scary post Jovo.

Markus Albertz · Oct 28, 2006

Your rant is all over the place, really. Let's be specific: have you actually seen the (previously posted) image and do you know what Nazi propaganda in Germany looked and looks like?

kjsphoto said:
Personally I would not want a copy of that image in an exchange either, but even though I do not agree with the Nazis ( I personally detest everything they stood for, my family fought against them in the war and many of them died as well. We are from Europe originally, and the stories I heard growing up are nothing short of appalling) but by removing the image from the site, how are we any different from them? Censorship is censorship no matter how you label it. As terrible as what the Nazis did, it happened and that image is clearly a reminder of the past. People need to know and be aware about tragedy so it will never happen again. I think removing the image is wrong.

There are certain types of images myself and other do not like, but it is the right of the people to post, to allow other to see how they see things and to express their inner-self through the images they create. There are images that the original people who companied I do not like, so should we ban those images also because say 5 others and myself dont like them?

Do you watch the history channel? They show shows about Hitler and Nazism all the time, should those be banned as well? Schoolbooks that talk about Hitler and what he did to the Jews, should those books be banned and burned as well? What about Sally Mann, should we ban and burn her images because some do not like them? Or what about the work of Misha Gordin, should that work be banned and burned because some of the images are to graphic and remind of us certain things?

While we are at it, lets take it one step further, to the extreme, lets also ban any religion except Christianity, after all only America exists in the world and every other country has no bearing and since America was a Christian nation in the first place only that religion should be allowed and through the rest of the world as well, who cares about others beliefs as only OURS are important and no one elses.

Let go one step further again; Look at Iraq for example? What right did we ( America ) have to go into a country to force a people to our way a life? Some will scream yes we did because Sadam was killing people? In whose eyes? In America we are murdering babies on a daily basis (ABORTION) and that is acceptable? so because I do not agree with abortion should it be banned? What about Korea with the nuclear testing issue? Even though I think they are extremely dangerous (my opinion again) should they be boycotted? But if memory serves me correctly, it was America that has been the only nations in the world to use a nuclear bomb against innocent civilians, not only once but also twice, remember Japan? So should the world ban America because they dont agree with Americas Foreign Policies?

WAIT A MINUTE; are we once again repeating the past?

And wasnt the image that was banned a reminder of what not to repeat?

See how dangerous banning and censorship can become? It all starts simple and harmless but the end results are all the same. When you start banning / censoring something because you dont like it, where does it end? Where can you draw the line? As long as 5 people dont like it lets keep censoring.

By the looks of it and according to the way some think around here it should be allowed and censoring and banning is totally and completely acceptable as long as they get their way, but as soon as you ban something they like WATCH OUT and watch history repeat itself once again!

Truly a sad day on apug...

PS> For the record I realize more is out there than America, I was just making a point to the extreme. No offense to other countries especially since my family is not from America in the first place.

kjsphoto · Oct 28, 2006

Yes I saw the image, a still life, hat, camera, case and medals.

Do you understand where I am coming from? Banning / censoring anything how are we any different? Where does it end? Even though to many removing an image is a harmless gesture the ideology behind it is just frightening. It may look harmless on the outside but when you think about what just happened, it is no different than the past. It all started with one…

I can see how easy it is in today’s society for something like Nazism to happen all over again, especially with the mindset I am seeing coming from some posters.

Different players yes, but same sickening ideologies.

Markus Albertz · Oct 28, 2006

Good, then it seems that we are on the same page. In any case, in my humble opinion, it is a far-reached conclusion to say that those who wish Nazi propaganda to be banned from a public domain are no better than those who promote third Reich ideologies. In fact, this is against the law in some countries on the other side of the Atlantic. Think about it... the logic applied here is similar to saying that those who prosecute pedophiles are prone to abusing their own children.

Maybe I did not say this clear enough: This is not about hiding or censoring historical documents that serve as reminders; this is about Nazi propanda, and thus a fundamentally different issue.

Regards,

Markus

kjsphoto said:
Yes I saw the image, a still life, hat, camera, case and medals.

Do you understand where I am coming from? Banning / censoring anything how are we any different? Where does it end? Even though to many removing an image is a harmless gesture the ideology behind it is just frightening. It may look harmless on the outside but when you think about what just happened, it is no different than the past. It all started with one

I can see how easy it is in todays society for something like Nazism to happen all over again, especially with the mindset I am seeing coming from some posters.

Different players yes, but same sickening ideologies.

kjsphoto · Oct 28, 2006

Understand and respect your point entirely.

Sean · Oct 28, 2006

I do not like censoring content and try not too but the reality is that with large internet forums you can not have a policy of zero censorship. What myself and the mods do by setting boundaries and moderating content goes relatively unnoticed. What you would notice is if myself and the mods left apug for a week and changed the site to "anything goes see you all later". We would most likely come back to a cesspool or the formation of one. As much as people want to fight for free speech they are not the ones trying to manage 16,000+ accounts in an active forum community. I think their stance would change pretty quick if they were handed the keys.

I have been in talks with the gallery software company in the past trying to push them towards adding content control variables. This would allow us to have a selection criteria on upload that would be checked for example:
-nude
-war images
-religious content

The gallery member could then state in their gallery profile to block any of that or allow any of that. Had the software allowed this the image would have stayed and been placed under war imagery, but at this time we have no way to tag image content by type and give members ability to accept or ignore that image type. To an extent some moderation is due to software limitations. The gallery software company has said they hope to release such functionality in the future..

Some say today is a sad day on apug and I have to disagree. What would be sad is adopting an anything goes attitude and letting the site self destruct.

Sean

John Bartley · Oct 28, 2006

IMHO ... context is important. There are a lot of folks who were forced/drafted to be soldiers in the German Armed Forces in WW2 who can be proud of having done their duty with honour and yet be ashamed of what their leaders stood for and did.

To try and hide the past from our children cheats our children of the opportunity to learn from that past. Nazi artifacts/momentos are a part of that past.

We shouldn't arbitrarily ban any images from APUG and any that are reported should be considered carefully and possibly discussed with the poster by the moderators in an attempt to discover the motive behind the posting beforte deleting them permanently.

my $0.02

arigram · Oct 28, 2006

I've resisted posting after what has happened to threads I have lately, but we had this conversation in the chatroom and I feel I need to express my humble opinion.

Some notes first:
For those who don't know history, Greece suffered a lot from the WWII. Those who know history will realise the importance of the Battle of Crete. They will also understand that the generation that suffered through the Nazi occupation and fought against it are still alive. Yesterday, the 28 of October is a national celebration day for the resistance against the Italian fascist army that brought Greece into the WWII.

My family still has a Lueger taken by a German officer that occupied our house during the occupation. Many other people still have weapons from the era (including a fully functioning Panzer that one hid in a cave until recently) and is very common to find Nazi stuff in antique stores. The city of Chania still has a statue of the Nazi eagle complete with the swastika and everything as a remembrance to the Battle of Crete.

Yet, my grandmother who still tells stories of the Nazi occupation and how the Germans took over our house and everything, wouldn't over-react like some of you people do.

If you look at a greek newsstand, you will find magazines and books dedicated to fascism, nationalism, right-wind extremism, complete with swastikas, SS runes and portraits of Hitler in the cover. And you will find more than one. I shiver when Adolf stars at me from the stand, but I won't be foaming in the mouth, yelling as a fanatic for banning and burning, because that would turn me into a facist, like them.

There are ultra-right wing nationalist parties in Greece, even ones that clearly state to being fascist or even nazist (which is something I never understand: how can you be a Greek nationalist nazi when you are not an arian and when your country suffered by them?). They live side by side with socialist, communist, conservative, royalist, environmentalist parties and all kinds of other ideologies.

You either believe in freedom of expression and democracy or you don't. Unless ofcourse symbols and words scare you so much that you are willing to throw away the things you supposedly stand for.

It also bothers me that the ancient indian symbol for the sun, one that was used extensively in ancient Greece and other civilizations as well has been restricted to being a symbol for fascism. Its like restricting the star, the hammer, the crecent or the circle because of some negative assosiation.

Having said all that, the community of APUG is far too immature and if they react hysterically to a nude or to someone's opinion, then maybe controversial images are not for this site.

Enjoy your flowers and rocks.

jovo · Oct 28, 2006

kjsphoto said:
Banning / censoring anything how are we any different? Where does it end? Even though to many removing an image is a harmless gesture the ideology behind it is just frightening. It may look harmless on the outside but when you think about what just happened, it is no different than the past.

Have you ever been in a courthouse? Do you understand why the banc is elevated above the floor? Do you feel a surge of patriotic fervor when one's national flag (as in any nation) is raised at a moment of national peril? Do you understand why the police wear uniforms and why those uniforms are not tinted in pink and violet pastels? Assuming you do, then you are aware of the power of symbols. To grant license to all symbols as if there were no power attached to them is simply naive. "Banning/censoring anything" is absolutely axiomatic. If you don't agree, try going to work naked...or get there and take off your clothes and tell those who are offended and angry that they are abrogating your right to self expression. Or try calling the White House and threatening the life of the president...see how a very long stretch in Levenworth appeals to you in support of your profession of the right to not be censored.

Symbols are not neutral, and, when perceived to be harmful to society by the majority of citizens, should be stongly discouraged by the power of social opprobrium. Self expression has limits. The sensible application of such obvious standards is, in my view, an absolute requisite of a civil society.

copake_ham · Oct 28, 2006

Sean said:
This was a very borderline situation, one that has never come up before in the gallery. but due to the number of reported emails from the image I decided to remove it. I tend to consider 1-3 reported emails as controversial, 3-5 as borderline and 6-10 as needing to be removed at the wishes of the community. It is extremely rare an image has been reported 6-10 times or more so that to me is an indicator it's just out of place here.

Thanks,
Sean

I think this was a wise decision.

This is an international forum and such postings can be very disturbing to some people. This is like asking if pornographic images would be acceptable here. Some would take the "total libertarian" approach and others would be extremely offended for a variety of reasons. Why invite such divisive controversy?

c6h6o3 · Oct 28, 2006

In Germany it is against the law to display a swastika or to perform the Horst Wessel song in public. They certainly know better than we do how destructive these things can be. While I don't personally find the photograph offensive, I'm certainly willing to acknowledge that Sean has probably done the right thing.

We might also do well to realize that the mentality which is quick to censor such a photograph is indicative of what I like to call the 'fascism lite' that is becoming ever more prevalent in the US. As things deteriorate economically and socially here, such attitudes may become full blown Hitlerian fascism if we're not careful.

Papa Tango · Oct 28, 2006

To call this material propaganda is absurd. From Websters:

PROPAGANDA n. Allegations, facts, opinions, and the like, systematically spead with the intention of helping or harming some individual, group, institution, or movement; the dissemination of such information, now often used disparagingly to denote half-truths, distortions, and biased information...

Viewing any artifact, be it NSDAP, Confederate, Soviet, etcetera, can only bring what meaning the observer gives it. There is no inherent power to a swastica, any more than there is a crucifix. These things are merely symbols of an ideology. It is the force of conviction that we give those meanings that result in social action that have power. By what measure did this removed photograph provide "propaganda" that espoused or decried the NSDAP cause?

How about I post a picture Dachau, Buchenwald, or Auschwitz? Or maybe one of the gulags...how conveniently have we forgotten that "Uncle Joe" exterminated more than Nazi Germany ever thought about. By this same measure, I should not post a picture of reinactors portraying a Civil War battle--does that carry propaganda? This misinterpretation is scary. How many more years before some interested parties call the books in my library or what I have written "propaganda" and seek to remove it from the landscape...

Buster6X6 · Oct 28, 2006

Wow!
I did not expect that an still image is going to create so much controversy. I wanted to display Leica camera and I added some memorabilia I bought at the air shows I attended in the United States in late eighties. The hat is actually "grenz schutz hut" from former DDR with flying wings attached to it. I also have a lot of US Navy memorabilia the airplanes I build and fly as models, should I have placed a Leica camera with Navy wings? I don't know, I apologize if I have offended half a dozend people this was not my intention. I made a still life that was pleasing to the eye with mid grays showing properly, I tried to expose and tone print to my liking does it matter what the subject is? I guess some people think it does.
I don't apologize for trying to improve my skills as a photographer.

Greg

Aggie · Oct 28, 2006

Wow and I just returned from seeinf Flags of our Fathers. I was one of the people who received the postcard, and have it in my collection. I thought Greg did a marvelous job of shooting and printing. As far as the artifacts, I too am ambivelent about it. My family was some of the most stubborn of Danes who not being jewish sewed a star of David on their clothing right along with the rest of the population. My Aunt hid out several Jewish people in her basement coal area. They huge beer casks down there that if the house was searched were the hiding places for those trying to survive. Yet like Ari I have a German Lueger complete with a box of bullets for it. It was one that same stubborn aunt (her name was Agnes) passed on to me when she died. How she came into possession of it I don't know. But I do know when it came to me, it had a small card with two danish words that translated to never forget.

The postcard in question was in the background a German officers hat on top of a pair of gloves. In the mid ground ther eis a leather camera case to the left and sort of right center is the lecia camera. to the far right is a patch off of a uniform. In the foreground on the left is a German medal, and in the center front the camera lens cover. I doubt Greg did this to glorify Nazi's. He collects for whatever reason this stuff. He is a pilot and this is from the luftwaffe. I know people in this country who collect memborabilia and don't think a thing about it of artifacts from the confederate army. I have viking artifacts. My brother who was killed in the Korean war, sent home artifacts from Korea. I can understand some of the opinions here. Each of us is sensitive to different things. It's a hard decision to make, yet Sean did. BTW I will keep my postcard. It is part of my collection.

kjsphoto · Oct 28, 2006

Buster6X6 said:
Wow!
I did not expect that an still image is going to create so much controversy. I wanted to display Leica camera and I added some memorabilia I bought at the air shows I attended in the United States in late eighties. The hat is actually "grenz schutz hut" from former DDR with flying wings attached to it. I also have a lot of US Navy memorabilia the airplanes I build and fly as models, should I have placed a Leica camera with Navy wings? I don't know, I apologize if I have offended half a dozend people this was not my intention. I made a still life that was pleasing to the eye with mid grays showing properly, I tried to expose and tone print to my liking does it matter what the subject is? I guess some people think it does.
I don't apologize for trying to improve my skills as a photographer.

Greg

Greg,

No need to apologize as you did nothing wrong.

Kev

JBrunner · Oct 28, 2006

jovo said:
Have you ever been in a courthouse? Do you understand why the banc is elevated above the floor? Do you feel a surge of patriotic fervor when one's national flag (as in any nation) is raised at a moment of national peril? Do you understand why the police wear uniforms and why those uniforms are not tinted in pink and violet pastels? Assuming you do, then you are aware of the power of symbols. To grant license to all symbols as if there were no power attached to them is simply naive. "Banning/censoring anything" is absolutely axiomatic. If you don't agree, try going to work naked...or get there and take off your clothes and tell those who are offended and angry that they are abrogating your right to self expression. Or try calling the White House and threatening the life of the president...see how a very long stretch in Levenworth appeals to you in support of your profession of the right to not be censored.

Symbols are not neutral, and, when perceived to be harmful to society by the majority of citizens, should be stongly discouraged by the power of social opprobrium. Self expression has limits. The sensible application of such obvious standards is, in my view, an absolute requisite of a civil society.

Personally, I like to know who the Nazis are, where they are, and what they are doing. Incidentally, Panzer corp uniforms had pink piping. It didn't seem to slow down Guderian.

DeanC · Oct 28, 2006

Aggie said:
The postcard in question was in the background a German officers hat on top of a pair of gloves. In the mid ground ther eis a leather camera case to the left and sort of right center is the lecia camera. to the far right is a patch off of a uniform. In the foreground on the left is a German medal, and in the center front the camera lens cover. I doubt Greg did this to glorify Nazi's. He collects for whatever reason this stuff. He is a pilot and this is from the luftwaffe. I know people in this country who collect memborabilia and don't think a thing about it of artifacts from the confederate army. I have viking artifacts. My brother who was killed in the Korean war, sent home artifacts from Korea. I can understand some of the opinions here. Each of us is sensitive to different things. It's a hard decision to make, yet Sean did. BTW I will keep my postcard. It is part of my collection.

Wow. I (unfortunately) didn't see the picture in the gallery, but after reading this description of it I'm saddened by the fact that people complained and dismayed by its removal. When did society decide that it was so unacceptable that someone might accidentally be offended by something.

Markus Albertz · Oct 28, 2006

Greg,

Thanks for clarifying the issue. Now that it is clear that there was no bad intention associated with your image, perhaps this discussion can be put to rest. I certainly felt it was important to consider the possibility that the content of the image could indeed be understood as Nazi propaganda. The plain fact that the image received such a strong response from many others suggests that it might have been wise to explicitly state the purpose of posting it. Particularly people who were brought up in Germany are extremely sensitive about the Nazi past as they don't take their responsibility lightly.

By the same token, someone here said it was absurd to refer to such an image as propaganda. May I suggest that you take dictionary definitions with a pinch of salt. You will be better off if you educate yourself by reading comprehensive reports on Nazi Germany and news of the present day so you will understand what sort of things were and are common propaganda.

Regards,

Markus

Buster6X6 said:
Wow!
I did not expect that an still image is going to create so much controversy. I wanted to display Leica camera and I added some memorabilia I bought at the air shows I attended in the United States in late eighties. The hat is actually "grenz schutz hut" from former DDR with flying wings attached to it. I also have a lot of US Navy memorabilia the airplanes I build and fly as models, should I have placed a Leica camera with Navy wings? I don't know, I apologize if I have offended half a dozend people this was not my intention. I made a still life that was pleasing to the eye with mid grays showing properly, I tried to expose and tone print to my liking does it matter what the subject is? I guess some people think it does.
I don't apologize for trying to improve my skills as a photographer.

Greg

Markus Albertz · Oct 28, 2006

JBrunner said:
Personally, I like to know who the Nazis are, where they are, and what they are doing. Incidentally, Panzer corp uniforms had pink piping. It didn't seem to slow down Guderian.

Neonazis for beginners:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,445256,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,442893,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,443932,00.html

I am glad to send you a German dictionary.

wilsonneal · Oct 28, 2006

I paused a little at the content, but I wasn't really offended. I am a little troubled that the Moderators reacted so quickly to avoid controversy. Sometimes the best action is non-action.

On the other hand, this board is more about photography than ethics, morality or politics, so the heck with it. Let's go back to our regularly scheduled programming.
N

JBrunner · Oct 28, 2006

Markus Albertz said:
Neonazis for beginners:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,445256,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,442893,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,443932,00.html

I am glad to send you a German dictionary.

Thanks, but not necessary, as I have a bit of German. (note my surname,
the other side is Stiehl) My family came from a little suburb called Sachsenhausen.

blaze-on · Oct 28, 2006

9-11 images are captured in our minds for eternity because we "lived" it.

I didn't live the nazi regime, but many images are emblazoned in my memory from the many magazines, newspapers, books, movies, etc. They evoke a powerful message and none could be claimed to condone.

"We will never forget" has become a 9-11 motto to most Americans.
Apparently the image in question (unseen by me) provoked an "I don't want to remember" response from, what, 6-10 people?

Aren't images/photographs/art supposed to evoke an emotion?

It is sad that so few from a 16,000+ membership have so much power.

To renew an interest - be it repugnance or whatever - in such a historically significant era is to me, a "Never Forget" reminder.

Claire Senft · Oct 28, 2006

It is comforting not to have to think about what these odious people did. However, I believe, as I am sure others on APUG do, that the last thing we want to forget is What happened so that it not be repeated.

Carried to an extreme, destruction of all things connected the Nazi regime, would, it seems to me, help us forget and to have a repeat.

Pastiche · Oct 28, 2006

Wonder if Sean would consider something like x% of the ACTIVE members (how you determine that is up to the peeps that run this place... say.. some ratio of posts/day . . the minimum being 1/day ... which would indicate a presence here daily...) would have to decry an image before it gets "moderated". . . . upon the first act of someone "reporting" an image, a tag could be added to the image (for x amount of time, so that it expires) alerting other people who LOOK at it that some members have objected to it's content, and so raise the questioin to those who view the work as to whether it stays or goes... when a critical mass (x%) is reached (like people signing a petition) the pic gets "moderated" .. .. .

although, I hesitate to even suggest something that would put more work on Sean's lap. . . I know there is a pile of things waiting his attention...

Is it okay to show Nazi items here on APUG

Is it okay to show Nazi memorabilia here on APUG?

Yes

No

Don't care

P C Headland

mark

Markus Albertz

kjsphoto

Markus Albertz

kjsphoto

Sean

Admin

John Bartley

arigram

jovo

Membership Council

copake_ham

c6h6o3

Papa Tango

Buster6X6

Aggie

kjsphoto

JBrunner

Moderator

DeanC

Markus Albertz

Markus Albertz

wilsonneal

JBrunner

Moderator

blaze-on

Claire Senft

Pastiche

Is it okay to show Nazi items here on APUG

Is it okay to show Nazi memorabilia here on APUG?

Yes

No

Don't care

Admin

Membership Council

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency