Is it me, or did I miss something?

Tis Himself · Feb 20, 2016

Although I've only been a member of APUG for a short while, I have been reading threads in this forum for several months. I was actively involved with photography for almost 40 years, primarily as hobbiest, but also as an adult education teacher. It was a delight and an honor to impart my knowledge of film photography to "newbies." For about the last dozen years I was forced to take a hiatus from photography due business issues. I am now retired and can return to this great hobby. My intent has been to educate myself with the numerous changes that have occurred, hence my interest in APUG.

Throughout the numerous threads I have read (including most all replies in each thread) I have come to several conclusions. Foremost among them is that the average member of APUG has a few years under their belt. Consequently, if analog photography is to survive, it is incumbent upon us (the older generation) to encourage anyone who might be interested in analog photography, particularly younger people who may only know digital imagery. I believed that this was one of the general "goals" of this forum. We're these conclusions incorrect? Have I missed something?

I was dismayed last evening when I was reading a thread from a few months ago. In it someone who was "just getting into film photography" was inquiring about the availability of plans because he wanted to build an enlarger. Several replies suggested that he would better served if he was to purchase an inexpensive used enlarger rather than attempt to build one from scratch. Others stated he would be wasting his time. A little later in the dialogue, the OP revealed that he was 16. Instead of offering encouragement, more replies followed reiterating the project was a waste of time. Again, did I miss something??

frank · Feb 20, 2016

Re, your secondary question: With enlargers being given away these days, it would be a bit of waste of time to try to build ones own and when picture taking time could be maximized.

MattKing · Feb 20, 2016

If I recall that thread correctly, those who were recommending that the OP seek out a used enlarger in preference to building one themselves were more interested in helping a new darkroom photographer avoid frustration than they were interested in discouraging experimentation.

It is not unlike the advice commonly given to "use one film and one developer until you know them well". Some take that as discouraging experimentation, while most recommend that to help avoid frustration and build confidence.

Luckless · Feb 20, 2016

I've found that a large number of photographers are rather blind to the idea that people like playing with mechanical things. Many are obviously very baffled by the idea that someone somewhere might want to actually build something, or design things, or to create something new or different from what others are currently using, and that people can take great pleasure of that in and of itself with zero relation to the passion that is photography.

"Why would you want to do that when you could be taking photos?!"

It can be maddening to try and talk about design details with photographers at times, because many seem to feel that camera designs are somehow holy relics or something. Cameras and related gear are apparently things that are prefect, and to talk about changes to them is somehow blasphemy of some sort.

I've tried to start conversations about various topics, but had them grind to a halt with "Someone else has already made the tools, why on earth would you want to make more?!", which I find rather ironic, given the kind of response you might get if you asked why anyone would want to take photos when you could just order prints of existing ones online for far less.

removed account4 · Feb 20, 2016

naaaah
you didn't miss anything at all. there will always be people who wonder why make an enlarger ( or anything else ) when you can buy one or pick one up for nothing,
just like there will also be people here who will retrieve articles in pop photography / mechanics and PDF them to the thread and say " i did this too, this is what i did, it would have worked out better if i added or didn't do this or that "

sometimes its just people offering suggestions, trying to help if $$ is involved, if the person isn't used to building things themselves or if safety is involved.

i actually tried to search for the thread you mentioned, but came up blank, but i did find 7 threads about
DIY enlarger making, and at least the ones i skimmed had people offering help, showing what they did &c.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)[title_only]=1&c[node]=77

Tis Himself · Feb 20, 2016

Thanks for the comments. I didn't mean to infer that there were no constructive advice, which there was. I guess the thing that bothered me was that after the young man had explained why he was interested in building an enlarger, what I perceived to be negative comments (with some being sarcastic), continued to flow. Geez, this was a 16 year old kid who was taking the initiative to try something new for him. While I agree that I would not take the time to try and accomplish such a project, I would not be critical of anyone who would, particularly if it was a kid who felt he might derive enjoyment from same. Fortunately some members offered encouragement. Incidentally, the thread is located under the "EXPOSURE" category, and began on October 2, 2015.

removed account4 · Feb 20, 2016

hi tis himself,
found it !

that thread is pretty normal for apug

... a handful of people offering good, sound, thoughtful advice;
a handful of people making wisecracks with a peanut gallery;
a someone suggesting they did the same thing and it cost as much as building a house.

JBrunner · Feb 20, 2016

IIRC St. Ansel himself did most of his best work with a home built enlarger constructed from an old view camera. Hopefully the young man does mess around a bit with his own. Some people just can't understand why a person would build something for themselves. Some people feel photography is about precision, that measuring everything and perfecting everything is the path to a great photograph. Most of the photographs those people make are pretty boring IMO, but that opinion, like photography, is subjective.

ic-racer · Feb 20, 2016

Compare that to the poor guy that can't find any film to buy and posts in the alternative forum asking how to make light-sensitive emulsions. No one shows him where the fresh film is located

DWThomas · Feb 20, 2016

After a quick look through that old thread (thought I might have participated, but not so) it appears we didn't learn the guy's age until quite far along. I built an enlarger for 35mm when I was near his age -- curiosity, yes -- but also simple economic desperation! However later in life, I would hardly consider such an idea unless it was for some format for which nothing close was commonly found. He did in fact receive quite a bit of useful info, and I think the answers pointing him away from DIY were well-intended (if not always diplomatic and tactful**) based on how middle-aged and older adults see things while badgered by competing demands on their time and the desire to have a quality tool.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

When I decided to revive B&W film photography in my life, around 2005, I bought an Omega B-8 via ePrey for about $80 That included a negative carrier, the supplementary condenser, and EL-Nikor 50mm f/5.6 enlarging lens, in ready to use condition. Back in the day, the lens alone was worth that. And I later got same brand 80mm and 105mm enlarging lenses and MF negative carriers off the auction site for dimes on the dollar too. I did disassemble some of it and refinish the baseboard, but it's far better than anything I would have the time, patience, and resources (and tools!) to build. But then I'm a retiree with reasonably sound economic footing.

I agree it is good for people to try building stuff; it develops more understanding of the theories and principles (assuming you are successful) and also generates more appreciation for what designers and engineers do. But with the relative surplus of used stuff, it may make little sense against the quality of results and expedience of grabbing an existing product.

** Alas -- this IS the Internet!

HiHoSilver · Feb 20, 2016

Tis, I think you do a kind service bringing up how we handle newcomers. Unless the hobby/activity is riding a wave of popularity, the new person and how they're treated is critical. Doing otherwise is self-correcting.

TheToadMen · Feb 20, 2016

Hello Tis, welcome to APUG!!

Ko.Fe. · Feb 20, 2016

Dozens of years? Yes, Tis, it is you and about you.
About me. I didn't read the building enlarger thread.
It is two ways scenario I'm not interested in.
One. Someone want to build enlarger to learn how it works. Fine by me. Nothing to do with age.
Second scenario, not enough money to buy. And it is very reasonable advice to say - no, it is free, doesn't cost anything.
If it is young person who wants to do photography it is most reasonable to get free enlarger.
Regarding young entering photography or cars or anything. Where are not so many 16 years old at any gear dedicated forum, Tis.
Time has changed. They are on the Net, but not at forums. Actually, I don't remember young ones to flock in masses at any forum.
Good luck with business, Tis.
Ko.

Tis Himself · Feb 20, 2016

DW: I can appreciate your Omega B8 story. They are great enlargers. I received a brand new one as a present on my 16th birthday (more years ago than I care to remember)! If memory serves me right, I believe that the enlarger and a 50mm Schneider Componon S lens was about $150. I, too, am gainfully retired and loving it.

Thanks to all who replied.

Sirius Glass · Feb 20, 2016

One can expend a big effort to build an enlarger and spend much more money doing so rather than pick up a high quality enlarger for almost nothing.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 20, 2016

frank said:
Re, your secondary question: With enlargers being given away these days, it would be a bit of waste of time to try to build ones own and when picture taking time could be maximized.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 20, 2016

Frank, I agree with your concern but the advise given is still reasonable. One should limit DIY project to items not available,far too expensive or in need of customization. a good enlarger can be had for a song and doesn't warrant a questionable DTY effort.the person in question is really better off with a good 2nd-hand enlarger. There are many other things he can build for his new darkroom and I'm sure APUG will be of great help for those projects

Ken Nadvornick · Feb 20, 2016

There is a tendency here and elsewhere for people to pass judgment solely through capitalist-colored eyeglasses. By that I mean we must all work for a living, and we all have jobs that enable achieving that goal. And most of us spend a disturbingly vast chunk of our lives working at those jobs because we have no choice.

The problem arises when we begin to pursue an activity outside of those jobs. We find it very difficult to "turn off" the vocation-oriented thinking and "turn on" the avocation-oriented thinking. Especially for just two quick days (often far less!) sandwiched between every five. Thus, by training and by habit we continue seeing every avocation task as just another extended vocation task.

The personal enrichment activity becomes hostage in our minds to the same job-related criteria of scheduling, deadlines, costs, returns-on-investment, etc., etc. That's how we have been trained to think and operate while at work, and we can't turn it off. In most cases we don't even realize we are doing it. But we are.

It leads to lines of thought like, if building one's own enlarger should mentally pencil out to be ten cents more than buying a used one, then we must be idiots to even consider it. We should be instantly (and justifiably) off to eBay.

No matter that designing and building (and even trying and failing to build) our own enlarger might pay back valuable personal ROI in ways completely different than cold hard cash. We just don't see it. We can't see it.

Tell your boss you want to learn how to do your job in a more difficult manner because you want to experience the personal enrichment inherent in self-achievement, instead of generating greater revenue for the company, and what is going to be his response? You're fired.

It's hard to unlearn a lifetime of that mental conditioning...

Ken

blockend · Feb 20, 2016

There are numerous ways to mess up when you're starting out in film photography. On the other hand the most interesting work comes from those who are prepared to experiment. The trick is to know sufficient to offer replicability, and not enough to descend into derivation.

If a home made enlarger (or developer, camera, film, etc) offers an increased sense of ownership and originality of the final image, go for it.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Feb 20, 2016

JBrunner said:
IIRC St. Ansel himself did most of his best work with a home built enlarger constructed from an old view camera. Hopefully the young man does mess around a bit with his own. Some people just can't understand why a person would build something for themselves.

Yes, but did he START with that enlarger? He worked with what was available, learned the operations and discovered the limitations, and then he engineered something for himself. Trying to build an enlarger when one has never used an enlarger would be something like trying do design a better automobile when one has never driven an automobile. That is, it would be a complete waste of time.

TheToadMen · Feb 20, 2016

RalphLambrecht said:
Frank, I agree with your concern but the advise given is still reasonable. One should limit DIY project to items not available,far too expensive or in need of customization. a good enlarger can be had for a song and doesn't warrant a questionable DTY effort.the person in question is really better off with a good 2nd-hand enlarger. There are many other things he can build for his new darkroom and I'm sure APUG will be of great help for those projects

You're absolutely right, no argument there. But then, where is the fun in that? Why not build an enlarger just because you can or want to - even if you don't need to? No reason to do so, but still a nice thing to achieve! It would be worthwhile just for the craftsmanship alone in my limited frame of reference.

“It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” ... Albert Einstein

blockend · Feb 21, 2016

We've certainly lost something in the buy-it-now consumerist scramble. The comics of yesteryear were full of make your own camera/enlarger/heavy water reactor articles. Life was simpler and more fun then, and the photographs weren't any worse.

frank · Feb 21, 2016

blockend said:
There are numerous ways to mess up when you're starting out in film photography. On the other hand the most interesting work comes from those who are prepared to experiment. The trick is to know sufficient to offer replicability, and not enough to descend into derivation.

If a home made enlarger (or developer, camera, film, etc) offers an increased sense of ownership and originality of the final image, go for it.

I agree with the first part of your post: "There are numerous ways to mess up when you're starting out in film photography."

But then disagree with your conclusion. Because it's easy to mess up when one is just starting out, introducing a questionable links in the chain when tried and true solutions are available, then I'd council to stay away from homemade enlargers, (mixing chemicals from scrap, and using FSU cameras, for example) until success with the basics is nailed down. Then expand your hobby to include DIY gear building and repair.

blockend · Feb 21, 2016

frank said:
I agree with the first part of your post: "There are numerous ways to mess up when you're starting out in film photography."

But then disagree with your conclusion. Because it's easy to mess up when one is just starting out, introducing a questionable links in the chain when tried and true solutions are available, then I'd council to stay away from homemade enlargers, (mixing chemicals from scrap, and using FSU cameras, for example) until success with the basics is nailed down. Then expand your hobby to include DIY gear building and repair.

Most photographer's work never stops looking like other photographer's work, no matter how technically proficient they become. If making a mess assists in distinguishing it, and making mistakes is the journey to that distinction, the variables will look after themselves.

frank · Feb 21, 2016

I guess you're suggesting that obstacles are helpful in finding and expressing ones vision, and I'm saying that an obstacle is an obstacle. If ones vision is strong enough nothing can stop it, but not everyone is an artistic genius and some of us just want a hobby. It's all good.

Is it me, or did I miss something?

Tis Himself

frank

MattKing

Moderator

Luckless

removed account4

Tis Himself

removed account4

JBrunner

Moderator

ic-racer

DWThomas

HiHoSilver

TheToadMen

Ko.Fe.

Tis Himself

Sirius Glass

RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

Ken Nadvornick

blockend

ParkerSmithPhoto

TheToadMen

blockend

frank

blockend

frank

Is it me, or did I miss something?

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