Is it difficult focusing 6x9 on a ground glass?

tedr1 · Nov 8, 2016

It's not a case of willingness to try or lack thereof, the poster asked for advice, my advice is don't choose GG focusing for handheld. It is always possible to make a special case using an extreme example, in your case the extremes are long experience with GG focusing and contrariness, however this argument does not convert the genre of the LF camera from a tripod instrument to a handheld instrument, it remains a tripod instrument, and I don't care how many "St Paul" experiences come your way they don't change the facts

Ian Grant · Nov 8, 2016

tedr1 said:
It's not a case of willingness to try or lack thereof, the poster asked for advice, my advice is don't choose GG focusing for handheld. It is always possible to make a special case using an extreme example, in your case the extremes are long experience with GG focusing and contrariness, however this argument does not convert the genre of the LF camera from a tripod instrument to a handheld instrument, it remains a tripod instrument, and I don't care how many "St Paul" experiences come your way they don't change the facts

Many LF camera are made for hand held or tripod use so there's no conversion of use, or contrariness. That's why many cameras are fitted with side straps as well as as sports finders, at their simplest are cameras like the Speed/Crown Graphics and similar Press cameras and then they range to the more sophisticated like the Linhof Technika or MPP Micro Techical and similar metal bodied Japanese Technical cameras far better movements.

It really is no different or more difficult focussing on a ground glass screen with a camera hand held compared to a tripod. The best of both worlds is a camera with a rangefinder cammed for the most frequently used lens (if you want range finder focussing). There are quite a few LF users on this Forum and also the Large Format Photography Forum who shoot some hand held LF work, and there's one well known photographer in NYC, can't think of his name off hand, and of course David Burnett probably the best know hand held LF shooter

Ian

crumpet8 · Nov 8, 2016

Great reads here, thanks everyone Really looking forward to getting started. Going to get a 4x5 horseman w/ 6x9 back I think Just negotiating with my local guy now, waiting on price.

Ian Grant · Nov 8, 2016

crumpet8 said:
Great reads here, thanks everyone Really looking forward to getting started. Going to get a 4x5 horseman w/ 6x9 back I think Just negotiating with my local guy now, waiting on price.

If you get that Horseman it should be a great camera. The fresnel screen and focus hood make cameras easy to focus, in fact a loupe doesn't work well when a fresnel is used and the increased apparent brightness is far more important.

Any camera is down to how you use it, and it's important to familiarise your self with how movements work, do some extreme tests. I have a trick showing how movements work practically where I place objects on a table top, focus roughly then adjust the tilt etc from the side of the camera without looking at the GG, I'm talking about approx 45º tilt which really is far more than you should ever need to use. It's far harder to write about than demonstrate.

Tedr commented that I had years of experience but thge reality is I learnt to use LF within a few days there's nothing difficult, I wasn't at all confident when I began using LF hand held, I knew no one (personally) doing it. So it was a gamble, as it happens I've never had issues, more importantly no-one can tell which images are hand held or with a tripod and really it's the images that count not the technique.

You'll have to evolve your own ways of working, David Burnett's ways aren't mine, quite the opposite and yet I have complete respect and awe for the outstanding LF work he shoots with a Speed Graphic and Aero Ektar.

Ian

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 8, 2016

You might also look up Weegee's essay on using the Graphic in his book, Naked City. His recommendation was to practice scale focusing at two distances and memorize those distances. He pretty much always used flashbulbs, so the subject distance also controlled the exposure, since the flash output was uniform and could pretty much overpower ambient as long as he wasn't in full daylight. That's not to say he never used other techniques, since we know he sometimes used infrared flashbulbs or two flash handles for shooting at a distance, and I'm sure he could make other accommodations for different lighting conditions (like using the hyperfocal distance for the famous shot of the beach at Coney Island on a sunny day), but for most situations that he shot, two distances, one lens, probably one film, and a flashbulb was enough.

crumpet8 · Nov 9, 2016

Ian - Great, ill definitely set up that table test first thing! I should pick up that camera ate local in the next day or so will have to order in a 6x9 back but am getting some 4x5 film holders with the camera.

David A. Goldfarb said:
You might also look up Weegee's essay on using the Graphic in his book, Naked City. His recommendation was to practice scale focusing at two distances and memorize those distances. He pretty much always used flashbulbs, so the subject distance also controlled the exposure, since the flash output was uniform and could pretty much overpower ambient as long as he wasn't in full daylight. That's not to say he never used other techniques, since we know he sometimes used infrared flashbulbs or two flash handles for shooting at a distance, and I'm sure he could make other accommodations for different lighting conditions (like using the hyperfocal distance for the famous shot of the beach at Coney Island on a sunny day), but for most situations that he shot, two distances, one lens, probably one film, and a flashbulb was enough.

I think I'll borrow that book from the library! hipefully I can also some get some nice shots using zone focusing (maybe even a little flash once or get comfortable!)

mnemosyne · Nov 9, 2016

A 4x5 technical field camera with a 6x9cm back to shoot hand held via GG focusing? Sounds to me like a Rube Goldberg device for taking photographs. I would even call it funny if the news weren't so bloody dire this morning.

crumpet8 · Nov 9, 2016

mnemosyne said:
A 4x5 technical field camera with a 6x9cm back to shoot hand held via GG focusing? Sounds to me like a Rube Goldberg device for taking photographs. I would even call it funny if the news weren't so bloody dire this morning.

For shooting just 6x9 then yes, but Im hoping to take advantage of the movements both formats and shoot a lot of bw 4x5 format as well. Seems the right choice, picking up a 45HD with a 150mm 4.5 voigt heliar kit tomorrow actually! Will start a new thread with some pictures later

Does anyone have experience with that lens? Havent found much info on it.

DREW WILEY · Nov 9, 2016

I find 6x9 GG focusing quite a bit fussier than with full 4x5. In addition, you are talking about shorter focal length lenses for any equivalent perspective, which means focus needs to be even more critical than with the somewhat longer lenses used for 4x5. Rollfilm backs sometimes tug
at the backs of field cameras and affect the focal plane, because they are a lot heavier than a simple sheet film holder. So there's at temptation to
use even smaller f-stops, which is exactly what you don't want to do with shorter lenses, with respect to ideal sharpness range. I'm just mentioning
some factors to be aware of, and am not trying to discourage anyone from shooting 6x9 in a view camera. I do it myself sometimes. Like everything
else, it takes some practice and helps to have precision equipment, including a good loupe.

AgX · Nov 9, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
I find 6x9 GG focusing quite a bit fussier than with full 4x5. In addition, you are talking about shorter focal length lenses for any equivalent perspective, which means focus needs to be even more critical than with the somewhat longer lenses used for 4x5.

The other way round.

Ian Grant · Nov 10, 2016

AgX said:
The other way round.

Not really, partly right, the shorter equivalent FL lenses for 6x9 have greater DOF so while slightly fussier to focus on a GG screen are also more forgiving, the longer FL on a 5x4 with shallower DOF at the same f stop. It's this shallower DOF that makes focussing slightly easier with longer FL lenses and that's common to all formats 35mm upwards.

Of course focussing aperture has a an effect as well so take an 90mm WA for 5x4 typical (full) apertures vary so an f4.5 90mm Grandagon lens is easier to focus than an 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon, followed bt the 90mm f6.8 Grandagona d the 90mm f8 Super Angulonn.

It's really about getting to know your equipment, so the OP will need to familiarise himself with the camera and lens and learn & evolve his own working methods.

The 150mm Heliar is a cult lens, should be fun to use.

Ian

AgX · Nov 10, 2016

Drew, Ian, it is a matter of wording:
Smaller DOF needs more precise focusing, the same time it yields a more snappy transition from unsharp to sharp, which facilitates focusing.

I guess that is what you both meant.

Brian Schmidt · Nov 11, 2016

Hello.

Keep in mind with using a 6X9 back with a 4X5 camera you will have much smaller image area and have to stand a ways further back than you normally would to get the same subject in the reduced area. This is a lot of why I don't really use the mask for 6X6 in my camera because you need a mile between you and the subject to get them all in there. Of course if you have a lens that will compensate for that you can get by.

Brian

Neil Poulsen · Nov 22, 2016

Hand-held and view camera work are so different, I would not try to combine them into the same camera. Otherwise, one's forced into giving up too much capability in each.

An important aspect of using a range finder is for spontaneous photography. Just changing lenses in a Technika, for example, takes forever. (Oops! Too bad about that one.)

View camera photography is just the opposite. It's about, slow and careful composition and exposure. For example, I had a Technika IV, 6x9 camera years ago. It was difficult to do any kind of wide-angle, view camera photography, because the top of the camera, and the viewer, inhibited any kind of rise. Boy, talk about frustration!

Consequently, I currently have a Mamiya press system and a medium format view camera. Each is an excellent system for the kind of work for which each was optimally designed.

crumpet8 · Nov 28, 2016

Neil Poulsen said:
Hand-held and view camera work are so different, I would not try to combine them into the same camera. Otherwise, one's forced into giving up too much capability in each.

An important aspect of using a range finder is for spontaneous photography. Just changing lenses in a Technika, for example, takes forever. (Oops! Too bad about that one.)

View camera photography is just the opposite. It's about, slow and careful composition and exposure. For example, I had a Technika IV, 6x9 camera years ago. It was difficult to do any kind of wide-angle, view camera photography, because the top of the camera, and the viewer, inhibited any kind of rise. Boy, talk about frustration!

Consequently, I currently have a Mamiya press system and a medium format view camera. Each is an excellent system for the kind of work for which each was optimally designed.

Yep, Ive ended up keeping them separate. A big part of the decision was the weight of the back itself! Happy now with my mamiya645 for colour (just ordered one from japan, though ive had one before) and the 4x5 for bw

AgX · Nov 29, 2016

The concept of the Technikas is to combine two worlds. As typically in such cases one has to live with shortcomings at both sides.

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 30, 2016

On the other hand, if one travels, it can be handy to have one system that can work for handheld photography or become a view camera when needed.

An alternative to that can be to travel with a lightweight view camera and some other lightweight camera, like a medium format folder, for handheld use, and I've done that (e.g., 4x5" Gowland+Voigtlander Perkeo II), but the Technika gives me the option of using all my cammed lenses handheld, while the folder has a fixed lens.

crumpet8 · Dec 1, 2016

David A. Goldfarb said:
On the other hand, if one travels, it can be handy to have one system that can work for handheld photography or become a view camera when needed.

An alternative to that can be to travel with a lightweight view camera and some other lightweight camera, like a medium format folder, for handheld use, and I've done that (e.g., 4x5" Gowland+Voigtlander Perkeo II), but the Technika gives me the option of using all my cammed lenses handheld, while the folder has a fixed lens.

Im going to try travelling with my horseman and an old mamiya 645 (without power winder). Think it will be manageable as I don't have any extra lenses at the moment

DREW WILEY · Dec 1, 2016

I finally got a break to print 16x20's from some of my summer 6x9 rollfilm back shots (ACROS - haven't printed any of the color ones yet). All from a long backpack in the mountains. So yeah, for me the smaller format is a bigger headache, but an inevitable one for a long trip, given the loss of Quickload sleeves. My success rate has climbed close to 100% with rollfim backs, rather than the 75% or so on the first trip I substituted these for
full 4x5. By this I mean obtaining a print very nearly equal to what I would expect from 4x5, though obviously not capable of quite as much sheer
enlargement. 16x20 is decent. I already have lots of 8x10 negs on hand suitable for big prints, and am still adding to those when my pack space is dedicated to primary photo gear rather than two or more weeks worth of food and camping gear. I also have a 6x9 rangefinder, along with a P67 system; but these obviously don't involve either view camera movement or the same kind of groundglass focusing. It's all fun; but one just has to learn the idiosyncrasies of each specific system. One really nice thing about the smaller format is that you get more "reach" with shorter lenses,
using less bellows extension. For those strenuous backpack trips I prefer to carry a little Ebony 4x5 folder rather than my bulkier, more convenient
Sinar. It will handle a 360 lens, but this involves racking out the front and back base tilts, and reveling the center pivots, in order to handle that kind
of focal length. But with 6x9, I substitute a tiny little 300 Nikkor M, which lets me bag those distant crags and details, using focus gearing alone,
much more conveniently.

crumpet8 · Dec 1, 2016

I dont do much backpacking thankfully. Maybe some day hikes or a weekend camping trip in the warmer months.

Each system definitely has benefits so I think theyll compliment nicely. One major one being that I can actually afford colour film in 120

Is it difficult focusing 6x9 on a ground glass?

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