Is Gray/Tan Possible on Ilford Warmtone Paper?

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if anyone has been able to tease out a "tan" warmth from Ilford's warmtone paper? I've tried selenium, sulfide, thiocarbamide, polysulphide, as well as different warmtone developers with short developing times, weak dilutions, warmtone additives, heated solutions, bleach/redevelopment in warmtone developers, etc and I haven't had much luck.

I'm trying to maintain a black and white look but with a tan warmth - not yellow or red/brown - rather than an olive warmth. Is it even possible or should I be looking at different papers or processes?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Michael

I see some examples in Tim Rudmans Toning book of Greys and browns, maybe tan from split toning Ilford warm tone paper, I haven't been been able to do it .

I'm not sure what colour shift you really want. I can get quite a fair degree of warmth from Ilford WT paper just by development and selenium toning. You say "but with a tan warmth - not yellow or red/brown - rather than an olive warmth."

Tan is a warmish red.brown colour which you say you don't want, the other direction is an olive colour best obtained using Ilford IT-8 toner which uses a bichromate re-halogenating bleach followed by a Pyrocatechin developer. The stain from the bichromate bleach and the re-developer intensify the image so you need to use a slightly light print.

Ian

Maybe your looking for a paper with a different base tint?

Wolfgang Moersch's site has sample images done with his chemistry and various papers. On this side of the pond his stuff is available from Freestyle.
http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/galerie

Thanks so much for the replies, everyone. I really appreciate the responses given how vague and subjective my colour quest is. It's difficult to describe but what I'm trying to achieve is the quality of black and white olive warmth inherent in MGWT but more tan, realizing that tan is a tone of brown. So maybe this is more of an issue of paper base than anything else. I was hoping to achieve this effect through development alone but I haven't managed it.

Mike c...I've tried just about every split possible. The predominant highlight coloration with indirect sepia toning falls into the yellows and works from highlights down which isn't exactly what I'm looking for at the moment. I tried to achieve the split in T-8 polysulphide but the color still isn't right. Tim Rudman's discourse is a wonderful reference but a blessing and curse with so many processes to try!

Ian...I apologize again for being so vague. How much selenium are you referring too? I've found that with overexposure, short developing times, and weak dilutions I can manage some great warmth, though it always maintains an olive coloration. Using the Agfa 124 developer I've found a bit of tan warmth, still pretty olive though. The subsequent selenium toning I've attempted typically requires stronger dilutions to provoke a colour shift and I'm not crazy about how that affects print contrast and tonal separation, the effect of which is inevitable as you go warmer/shift colour.

With respect to the IT-8 redevelopment, what's the effect of selenium treatment after?

Doremus...I think you're probably right. I've been printing almost exclusively with this paper for years. Any suggestions to comparable - in terms of overall quality of product - papers would be greatly appreciated.

bdial...Thanks for the link! I've have to check into that more.

Michael,
Your profile says UL format. Have you considered platinum/palladium contact printing? There are some "natural" white papers and you can vary the tones with your sensitizer mix. Once you try it you will like it. For more information check with Bostick and Sullivan. ( I get my supplies from them.)

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

MGWT does not have a warm base, just a potentially warm emulsion. But without getting into too much elaboration, here's a trick I use. Glycin can
be "aged" just like a fine wine. It doesn't keep well without oxidizing. So I keep fresh bottles of powder in the freezer, which seem to stop change.
But then I'll have maybe a couple open 100g containers. When the powder is fresh it typically has a light tan color, which upon aging transitions through a mocha color into a chocolate brown, and finally into an nearly unusable black-brown. And as it gets geriatric, so to speak, it also tends to
stain not only highlights more, but the paper base itself. So when I want it to behave cooler and more neutral, I use it fresh in my Ansco 130; but
when I want it to deliberately stain the paper somewhat, I use the older jar that has gone chocolate color, or whatever. Then you can combine this
feature with various split toning techniques, such as a combination of gold toner followed by a sulfide like Kodak Brown Toner. Olive, no; that would
be something more characteristic of Dektol or other MQ developers.

Michael, I've not tried Selenium toning prints toned in IT-* toner, I only use it for the very odd times I want very rich olive tones. I think Selenium toning might not be string enough to shift the olive towards brown. Maybe using a normal ferricyanide/bromide bleach followed by the Pyrocatechin re-development. I have used Pyrocat HD which works just as well as the Ilford simple Pyrocatechin developer I used Pyrocat HD 1+1 to 25.

I'm still confused by what you call tan, I can't picture the colour you are after at all

Ian

Jefferyg...That's a really interesting idea. The vast majority of my work is from 11x14 film but I project it through an enlarger. My print sizes vary from 11x14 to 50x70" image size. I'll have to dig into that to see how big of a platinum/palladium print I can make. Thanks for that!

Drew...Thanks for that info. That's a really cool idea. I'll most definitely try that.

Ian...I know, it's embarrassing that I can't articulate the colour properly. I actually tracked down some of your previous posts regarding the IT-8 several months ago and tried Pyrocat-P (which is the developer I use) after a "normal" ferricyanide/bromide bleach but the image came out pretty purple-brown stained which makes sense given that the working solutions of Pyrocat-P turn purple. I'll give it a go with Pyrocat-HD and see where it ends up. Thanks!

Ian Grant said:

I'm still confused by what you call tan, I can't picture the colour you are after at all

Ian

Click to expand...

Well if he were me the picture I'd have in my mind was that one of yours I commented on recently. That's tan to me. Yes I realise that its colour might not be easily replicated as it involved Agfa paper now no longer produced that had cadmium in it but it might be worth showing it in case this is the look he is after. I forget the pic's title and despite trying, cannot now locate it again.

pentaxuser

It may be that you'd be better using MG IV if you're using indirect toning (i.e. bleach then toner) because Warmtone papers give very much warmer red-brown tones in comparison.

Pentaxuser's referring to a print made on the old Record Rapid which contained Cadmium, I could get reddish tones with that paper by development alone, but I never used that extreme after the tests. It gave olive tones until Selenium toned, sometimes I selenium until the blacks split to a red, This is(was) a technique used by Thomas Joshua Cooper,Olivia Parker, and I thin Linda Connor.

I don't know a paper that gets close maybe Fomatone MG Classig FB 131, it's a lovely paper but I switched to Multigrade Warmtome as it's the closest to my favourite paper Plywarmtone.

Ian

The cat's meow for warm paper/olive image was graded Portriga. A long-gone classic, probably also dependent upon some cadmium, though I have managed to replicate a similar look in MGWT. It just requires a lot of experimentation and special developer tweaks; and I don't have the specific notes here, but back in the lab. Portriga made it easy, though obviously didn't have the convenience of a VC paper.

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas, everyone! I wish there were more paper options out there.

Ian, I think you're bang on. I'm going to switch to a neutral tone paper and see where that takes me. I did try the MGWT with a IT-8 redevelop using ferri/bromide bleach and the image came out pretty cold. I've tried redeveloping MGWT with several different developers but haven't seen much, if any, warmth shift.

Michael.
I always found when toning MGIV WT, it was to explosive for my taste, and a bit uncontrollable. I would second a previous suggestion that you try MGIV Classic. I’ve been using this paper for awhile now, and I find it far more flexable than WT. It is capable of producing a range of subtle tones and colours using vario sepia and selenium in various combinations and dilutions.

I just did several tests to determine how my MGIV WT prints would tone in selenium, sulphide and gold, so I am very interested in this discussion.

Michael, is it possible to give us a reference colour? If you have Rudman's book, maybe you could pick out something that looks like what you want. Or what about trying to find something on his website that is close to what you want. http://www.timrudman.com/toning-processes

I feel like I am at a wine tasting but no one is allowed to drink!!

I concur with Drew regarding Agfa Portriga. It has been a real loss with no easy replacement. I just look at my old prints and wish I could duplicate them. Toning Ilford Warmtone with a polysulfide based toner will only get you close, but it is not the same.

David...I completely agree. Relative to the Classic and other neutral tone papers, MGWT can be explosive in the way colour manifests. Over the years I've learned to control it but only really within the scope of characteristics/behavior inherent in the paper. But the Classic paper undoubtedly offers more subtlety. The problem I keep running into is that I'm essentially trying to replace the olive warmth of the paper base with a tan warmth without pushing the highlights yellow-yellow as opposed to tan brown, which I realize is slicing the baloney pretty thin. I've found indirect toning with sulphide and thiocarbamide problematic for this with both MGWT and Classic papers. I haven't tried much polysulphide toning with the Classic paper so that might be a next step. Balance is everything...

Doc...I've made hundreds if not thousands of tri-toned prints - sepia, gold, and selenium - with MGWT. The balance and order of the three can create some gorgeous colour splits. In fact, I typically use gold to augment the hue of my highlights after thiocarbamide and I also find that gold anchors the highlight coloration. It's amazing what 30 seconds of GP-1 will do. But it's really tough to reference the specific colour I'm after beyond replacing the olive warmth of MGWT with a tan warmth, almost in the fashion of an "antique" print, which might be a little misleading. I guess I'm trying draw a distinction between the quality of warmth/colour inherent in a paper versus the warmth/colour brought on through toning. So as the MGWT paper retains a slight olive colour as a black and white print, I'm trying to achieve the same kind of feel but with a tan-brown colour instead. If that makes any sense...

Faberryman...I was going to mention this with Drew's last post: one one hand it's depressing that I never had the chance to print with some of those discontinued papers, on the other I'm glad that I don't know what I'm missing. It must have been infuriating when they stopped making those papers.

Ultimately, I'm tyring to keep a series of prints within the same black and white aesthetic with varying degrees of warmth. I had hoped to push the olive warmth into tan-brown without explicitly making a brown print, or a print with yellow highlights, or anything that registers as colour cast in the sense of retaining as much clarity as possible realizing that more warmth equals a somewhat less dynamic tonal range.

Do you have any experience with Moersch Carbon Toner and MGWT?

Faberryman...No, I haven't had any experience with Carbon Toning. I could be wrong but I didn't think that it's available in Canada. It would be great to try though. Great idea.

Pardon the ratty edges and the dust, but this is a quick a dirty scan. Both are MGIV WT developed in Dektol 1:3. The one on the right is a bleach/redev in thiourea. It looks tan with a hint of olive to me, but I guess everyone has their own definition. In prints made with this formulation, the shadows are very deep chocolate and midtones/high values to not go yellow

Is that the kind of thing you are looking for?

Doc...That's definitely in the range, particularly in the upper mids and highlights, but a bit too brown overall. If you don't mind sharing, what bleach and thiocarbamide solutions did you use? I'm assuming that it's a bromide bleach and I'm wondering how much potassium bromide to ferricyanide; same with the thiocarb, how many grams of hydroxide to thiocarbamide? I'm wondering if there could a be a way of getting upper mids and highlights like that but while retaining a bit more of a gray/black and white look through the lower mids and shadows - perhaps from a partial bleach or a short selenium before sepia. I also haven't printed with Dektol in years. That might be something to move back too, as well. Thanks for this!

Michael, I am glad that this was helpful to you.

Indeed the prints that came out of this batch were very brown, which I was I wanted, but I felt that the tan might be of interest to you. I have the basic procedure and times in my notes but the bleach and the redeveloper were mixed by another APUGer, Hexavalent. He is going to add his data as soon as he organizes his notes (very shortly). We spend a lot of time in the darkroom together. He is the "chemistry expert."

- MGIV WT developed in Dektol 1:3 for 2'
- bleach for 5 minutes
- toned for about 3'

In that final toning step, the strip developed very quickly, in less than 30" if I recall. We really didn't need to leave it in that long.

Let's see what Hexavalent has to say. We might run a few more tests on this tomorrow.

Michael,

For the platinum/palladium they would be contact prints so if your film is 11x14 then that would be the size of your print. For other sizes you would need a negative the size of the print you want. Once you have coated and dried the paper you place it in a printing frame with the negative and expose with UV light. It would probably be best to start with smaller prints to keep the cost down during the learning phase. The largest print I have made is 11x14 since that is what my setup can handle. Usually most are smaller. Several years ago I printed a limited edition series for a well known photographer (never again ). There was a total of 56 prints ... 14 each of four negatives. He wanted sharp borders and for each print of an image to be identical. I was successful in pleasing him and was paid in prints ... 4 printer's proofs and 3 sets of numbered prints. If I ever sell them it will be well worth it but for now it was an interesting experience and I guess good for a resume.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Doc W said:

I have the basic procedure and times in my notes but the bleach and the redeveloper were mixed by another APUGer, Hexavalent. He is going to add his data as soon as he organizes his notes (very shortly). We spend a lot of time in the darkroom together. He is the "chemistry expert."

Click to expand...

...and here it is, basically Varigram 6B-1 Bleach and 6T-1 Toner:

Bleach:
Water, 750.0 ml
Potassium ferricyanide, 22.0 g
Potassium bromide, 25.0 g
Water to make 1.0 liter

Toner:
Water, 750.0 ml
Thiourea (thiocarbamide), 3.0 g
Sodium hydroxide, 6.0 g (caution: strong alkali that can cause severe burns - add to water slowly)
Water to make 1.0 liter

Method:
Prints should fixed in a non-hardening fixer bath.
Thoroughly wash the prints then bleach twice the time necessary (total 3-5 mins in the samples shown by DocW) to completely convert the black image.*
Then wash again until the image is free from the yellow bleach color.
The bleached print is placed in toning bath and left until toning is complete.

*Note: Different toning effects may be achieved by use of diluted bleach and 'pulling' the print before it has completely bleached.This technique can yield a split toning effect: sepia highlights with shadows retaining most of the native black tones.