Is formalin necessary for e6?

1kgcoffee

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I just developed some velvia 50 and am extremely pleased. After further research it seems that formaldehyde is necessary to stabilize the slides. This is not present in the kit I received.

Is it necessary to use formalin? How long will they last without it out?
What is the procedure, how long do I soup them for and does it have to be done immediately after development or anytime?

-thanks in advance,
1kgcoffee
 

MattKing

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See at least the first post in this "Sticky" thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

trendland

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Sure you will need it

with regards
 

ArgentixCa

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Hi 1kgcoffee

I already asked the manufacturer of my kits this question and here is the reply I got in 2015.

We discontinued the use of a formalin stabilizer many years ago when people had fears of the chemical as a carcinogen.(which was never proven one way or the other).
Formeldahyde is still a very good preservative for E6 films, but, it is generally not available or easy for an end user to purchase.
The stabilizer was just formalin plus photo flo.
Over the years Kodak and others were able to make much better dyes that were much more stable and they discontinued the formalin type stabilizers as well for both C41 and E6. we went to a different type of stabilizer as did Kodak.
The new stabilizer is very much the same as the powder one in your C41 powder kits.
This consists of hexamine and Photo flo. We do package this as a liquid for our liquid C41 kits.
Kodak and others found hexamine to be a good replacement for conventional formalin stabilizers.
In reality, the most critical thing affecting the stability of an E6 film is a thorough washing to rid the film of residual bleach fix.

Hope this helps!
 

Photo Engineer

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The E6 process uses formalin in the process. The couplers were never updated to the newer types used in C41 or ECN films. The formalin in the real E6 process is present in the form of a chemical compound that creates formalin during the process. It can be used as a post process bath called a stabilizer. See that sticky thread that I created some years ago.

AFAIK, Fuji never updated their products either because they use a stabilizer as well. Unless the supplier of your kit has done the proper dye stability tests, they have no idea of what they are doing in this regard.

Neither gulutaraldehyde nor succinaldehyde were ever used or recommended by Kodak or Fuji for stabilizing films.

PE
 

trendland

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You asked aboud : "how long will they last withhout it."
The simple answer is : Not as long as with a sufficient stabilizer.

But don't be to much afraid of this.
You will normaly have no problems in the next few years.
It depends strongly to the conditions of
storage as there is temperatur, absolute humidity, darkness, climatic changes (higher temperatures folowing lower temperatur every day for example)
and enviromental toxines.

And dont store slides in a garage or in
a washkitchen.

Normal room climatic conditions gives
slides a minimum live of 10 to 15 years
without noticiable color changes.
The rest is very depending in storage
- do not forget effects of projektion due to time and temperature.
So you will also have a guarantee of min.
5 years livetime - but I won't do so
(no stabilizers)

I personaly have slides 35 years old with very smal color crossings 10 - 15%.
You see a typical brownish tone on old
ektachrome.But as I remember it was from the beginning on. (typical colors).

Some Agfa CT 18 began to lose colors
in a more noticiable way. But the
very most ektachromes are loking OK.

(AFTER 35 years) they have seen not very often halogen lights I must say of cause.

Aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnd :All of my kodakchromes looks like shoot in the last
week.

absolute indecrible.

But without stabilizers you should minimum half this time.


with regards
 

Ian Grant

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It's worth remembering that some of the companies making E6 (& C41) kits were set up my ex Kodak employees with the relevant photo-chemistry backgrounds. So when they left out the stabiliser step they knew it wasn't really needed any longer.

One of the very best photo chemists when it came to colour processing was Pip Pippard of Johnsons and a founder of Photo Technology after Johnsons ceased making/selling chemistry, Photo Tecnology made Chrome 6 (later part of Paterson and then made for them by Tetenal).

It has to also be remembered that many of these smaller companies had a huge wealth of knowledge going back decades before Eastman founded Kodak. Johnsons supplied Fox Talbot with Silver Nitrate later they were making colour couplers, they inter-traded with companies like Ilford and Kodak Ltd.

A reality check is my father's Kodachrome slides are fading stored in the dark - all pre K25 my K25 slides are fine, my E6 lab processed are just as good as the ones I processed in Chrome 6 which had no stabiliser, some of my lab processed C41 negatives are fading.

Ian
 

Photo Engineer

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The coupler used in E6 films is what Kodak called a 236MD type pyrazolone. This is an internal classification. It is unfortunately subject to reacting with its own dye. Thus, during keeping the coupler reacts with dye and fades leaving 2 couplers attached together and no magenta dye. Since excess coupler is present in the Dmin and little or none is present in the Dmax, the change is non-linear from toe to shoulder. In the toe, you get lots of fade and in the shoulder you get little fade. This is called "pink toe fade" which causes a post process form of crossover. There is also a lot of yellow stain associated with this.

To prevent this, formalin is added to react with excess coupler forming 2 couplers linked by one formalin molecule. It works poorly with other aldehydes, thus my comment above about succinaldehyde and glutaraldehyde.

Since R&D was proceeding on neg-pos products, the problem was solved in about 2000 and the need for formalin was eliminated in those processes, but the demand for E6 products prevented costing the R&D for this change and thus, formalin was retained but in an altered for in a pre-bleach bath.

I have no idea what Fuji did, but they seemed to follow the Kodak E6 process needs and still do.

I have one of the first patents on the use of Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulfite, the material used in this pre-bleach and am quite familiar with its need in the process.

I have given the best explanation that I can about this particular problem and have run extensive tests in C41 and E6 products as well as paper products to prove to my satisfaction that formalin is still needed in E6 products. I hope someone can come up with data proving me wrong!

PE
 

trendland

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Ian - regarding pre K25 (my very first Kodachrome25 was from 1979 - K14)
we should not forget the addition of years livetime of them.
I suppose your pre K25 (you stated: "fading") are going back to the 60th,
am I right?
And I suppose the colors they have today
are usefull (they have faded only smal).
Then we can resume that even Kodachrome II and Kodachrome x have still colors since more than 50years.
Thats amazing I would say.
So we can say K12 was not a bad process at all.
If you have old slides from the original Kodachrome (they named it not
Kodachrome I because there was no need for) we are speaking aboud slides
with an minimum age of 60 - 70 years.

By the time - some tv dokumentaries have shown USAF using Kodachrome
over europe.Aerial motion pictures from
1944-45.
Quite likely digital restored with colors
never seen from this time before.
Kodak (in mind from an old article) made climatic tests with E6 and Kodachrome and assumed consistent fade of (theoraticaly) from each color layer of 30% and came to the result of
livetime to less than 200 years to E6
and only more than 135 years to K14.
within extremest fine storage conditions.
Conditions wich are unreachable to normal people outside an national archive.
I am not realy beliving this "big advantages" of modern E6 at all in comparision to K14.
Perhaps it was a little marketing/advertising to E6 some years later they began to kill Kodachrome.

Now my simple question Ian : should we not thing on stabilizers that they could
not be the best of the best we can get
to E6 ?

Because we all know that E6 doesn't have had a real chance to reach K14
in livetime - at any time (with dark storage of cause)

with regards
 

trendland

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Yes I've read the sticky threat of cause.
As I remember twice - perhaps one time
additional.
But I am not sure at 100% - as it is from my mind there is a possability to let your
E6 react also later with formalin (after devellopement).
Therefore you will use the recipe of the
final rise with formalin.
You yust have to read it - all facts are
mentioned as I remember.

PS : .......and dont get in panic to lose
your Velvia 50 slides within month because the concerns of image stabilizers are "Long Time Concerns"


with regards
 

Ian Grant

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Just to get the facts 100% right:

Eastman Kodak stopped using Stabiliser containing Formaldehyde for E6 processing sometime back in the mid 1990's because it wasn't needed any longer. These days they supply a Final rinse solution which contains a surfactant and anti-fungal agents, it contains NO formaldehyde.

Formaldehyde is used earlier in the E6 process, in Kodak's case in the pre-bleach. So beware misleading information. E6 does not need a formaldehyde based stabiliser any longer.

Ian
 

trendland

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Ian - It was not my indention to doubt
to the facts you stated before.

Therefore I came to the part you mentioned with your pre K25.

PE. stated it different - well you both are
some of the most experienced experts
I ever heard about to many very specific
facts - if I may say so. And one can say that the very most others here have
also absolute no doubts about it that you both give use here most extrem
appropurate analysis.

But could we say that formalin is additional very helpfull due to livetime
even when other manufacturer stated they will not need it anymore?

Thinging therefore to superb livetime
and stability with K14.


with regards
 

MattKing

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Ian:
It would be more accurate to say that "as long as you are using a version of the E6 process that uses or creates formaldehyde earlier in the process (Kodak's version uses it in the pre-bleach), you do not need to use a formaldehyde based stabiliser".

It seems to me that the impetus for all these enquiries is that with some of the alternate sources for E6 chemicals (particularly the small quantity ones) it is not clear that formaldehyde is either present in the chemicals at time of mixing, or created as a byproduct of development.
 

Photo Engineer

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Matt, you have certainly clarified this. E6 requires Formalin at some point in the process after color development! It acts as a stabilizer.

PE
 

Ian Grant

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The general comments about the smaller kits are quite valid , t, however somehow Pip Pippard of Photo Technology overcame the need for formaldehyde with his Chrome Six kits. It's something Fuji worked on as well hey don't state what they use except that the Formaldehyde is substituted.

I go back to the expertise of photo-chemists like Pip Pippard had, he worked for a company at the forefront of colour couplers and developing agents while at Johnsons and they weren't really selling to then public, they were a major trade supplier at one point.

Of all the third party E6 (and C41) kits available here in the UK (many imported from the US) only Photo Technology had a good reputation, and of being on a par with Kodak and Fuji processes, which with nearly 20 years experience I'd agree with.

Ian
 
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1kgcoffee

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Thanks for all of the responses, I think I can acquire some.

Does it need to be done immediately after the final wash or can the film be wetted later (photo flo?) and then formalin applied. Also for how long and how much agitation? Does temperature matter?
 

mshchem

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I spent the 200 USD for the Fuji Hunt 5 liter kit. I don't know whats in it. I do think that this is my best option. I have Kodachrome and Ektachrome slides from my father. Some of the Kodachrome slides are nearly 70 years old. I remember my Dad ALWAYS used Kodak's processing labs to develop his slides. If we were on vacation, the rolls would be posted and sometimes would be waiting for us when we returned.
I really am hoping that the new Ektachrome and Ferrania products go over big. I love projecting slides. Each one is a little work of art .
Mike
 

nevintagefilms

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As you have identified, if you are using a small 3 bath kit such as Arista that does not have a stabilizer of any kind you will need a formalin/photo-flo mixture batch to stabilize E6 films. (Note that the tentenal kit does still come with Formalin). Please see the sticky about stabilizer for details regarding mixing formaldehyde and photo-flo to make your own stabilizer as well as suggestions for temperature and time. However, the short of the story is that room temperature should be fine and you'd have to intentionally over-soak to damage your film... like forget about it for an hour or more. Just soak it 2 or 3 minutes and you should be good... if you do 10 minutes it probably won't hurt anything.

I'm sure (and hope) PE will chime in (and should) if I said something incorrect.

I have recently used the Arista E6 3-bath kit with excellent results. I then used the Formalin recipe for 2 minutes as a final rinse. Only 10+ years will tell if the image is actually stable or not.
 

nevintagefilms

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That kit is similar to the Kodak in that the dye stabilizer is part of the pre-bleach step and carry-over from that step into the bleach, fix and final rinse all together results in a "stabilized" image. Exactly how all these chemicals interact is an unknown to me for sure... but Formalin is definitely not needed here.

But that kit is rather expensive and (to me) seems hard to use for home photo processing... the replenishing, etc... seems like too much to go wrong. Looks like FreeStyle should have the tentenal kit again in a couple weeks. When they do, I'll order that and separate out the bleach and fix steps. The result should be a true old-school, high quality and fully stabilized E6 home process.
 

dale116dot7

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I have also used the Fuji Hunt kit and have been very satisfied with the results. I have used the other blix-based kits but the Fuji Hunt kit gives me great and repeatable results every time and I feel that the blacks are blacker, the whites are whiter, and the colours are brighter. Maybe not a night-and-day difference but the separate steps look much better to me. As PE said a few posts back, the formalin is still needed however it can be in the form of a formaldehyde precursor. There are several options but sodium formaldehyde bisulfite is one, hexamine is another (I've seen both used in different chemistry kits). US patent 4921779. This precursor is put in the pre-bleach step and soaks into the emulsion. When one of the next baths is put in (perhaps the bleach?) the chemistry change causes the precursor to 'break down' and the formaldehyde is then released in the emulsion.
 

trendland

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Concerning new E6 films I hope with you.
In case of Kodak there are no doubts that they will handle it. They will reformulate as good as it can be done
their latest E100g films (never supose you get EPR,EPN,EPP) but never mind-
it is allways in the very near.
But you should not wonder about the new prime product price.
$ 16,95 - $ 19,75 is my personal guess.
To ferrania - ????
Hope lost at least.
Hope one can buy ferrania chrome 100
with a price of $12,50 - 14,50 but I am
not shure they will handle it ever.

Just look at p-30 - there you can see they need money.

with regards
 

nevintagefilms

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I would be astounded if Kodak attempts to re-introduce Ektachrome at a 12,50-14,50 USD price point. If they do it will die a miserable death. Velvia 50 can be had via online distributors for around $12/roll with ease and no additional discount. The closest equivalent to Ektacrhome, Provia 100F or Velvia 100 for $11. If the new product comes in costing more than the already available product it will be doomed. After cancelling E100 in 2012 all remaining slide-film users changed to Fuji, who was already more popular in the first place. Why would you switch back? I doubt a new E series will be in any way superior to the Fuji line of chromes.
 

Gerald C Koch

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