Is Fomadon R09 the Same as Rodinal?

gone · Jan 12, 2014

I just noticed that Freestyle advertises Fomadon R09 developer as being similar to Rodinal. Similar is a pretty flexible word. I've only used the Freestyle stuff twice and was pretty happy w/ it at 1:25 (think I may have messed things up somewhere when I tried it at 1:50 in an attempt to tame the grain a little, so later I'll revisit that dilution scheme). It's probably a better developer for negs bigger than 35mm, but the grain it gives, while certainly pronounced, is nice. I suspect that this developer is really about doing different tests and finding a look that one likes, vs souping negs in D76 and getting excellent results right off the bat.

I'm wondering how similar this actually is to Rodinal, since I never used that developer? There seems to be way too much "discussion" on the internet on this developer. It's almost a cult thing. My style of photography is just that, I'm a photographer not a chemist, so I'm not going to mix up my own. I was just wondering if there are other formulations out there that I could purchase that might be closer to the Rodinal formula?

AgX · Jan 12, 2014

There are two recent statements on this matter:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

However CCP&S (which refers to the late Agfa plant in Vaihingen) does not produce Rodinal anymore:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This is still cryptic of course on some details but the best available currently about Fomadon.

Xmas · Jan 12, 2014

all of the p-aminophenol in NaOH or KOH devs should be pretty similar and last a long time.

Even if you use painkiller like

Dead Link Removed

who is a site member.

don't decant or filter or worry about self life

don't try go mix up yourself unless you can handle drain cleaner with security

my last plastic bottle of Rodinal lasted 25 years part full.

gone · Jan 12, 2014

Well, I'll be long gone in 25 years, so that sounds good (the developer's shelf life sounds good, not my shelf life). Thanks. I'll just use the stuff I have and play w/ it using different dilutions/agitation schemes. I've read that stand development for 1 hr can give nice results at 1:100. Never tried stand developing. I can see how someone could easily get hooked on endlessly experimenting w/ this stuff! Probably the best thing I could do is use a 100 ISO film (FP4 or Delta 100)?

I have 2 rolls of 35mm Arista EDU Ultra 100, but that may not be a good choice. The last time I tried that w/ D76 things looked grainy and high contrast (shot in bright sun).

timor · Jan 12, 2014

Alessandro Serrao said:
Mirko of Fotoimpex said that Adox Adonal IS NOT R09 one shot.
They are comparable but NOT the same developer.
To what I know only Adox Adonal is the genuine Rodinal recipe.

What I understand the genuine Rodinal recipe is in legal limbo and cannot be used by any developer maker. R 09 is exactly, what it is a R 09 also called Calbe R 09. It is not patented forerunner to Rodinal, so it is very similar in action.

timor · Jan 12, 2014

momus said:
I've read that stand development for 1 hr can give nice results at 1:100. Never tried stand developing. I can see how someone could easily get hooked on endlessly experimenting w/ this stuff! Probably the best thing I could do is use a 100 ISO film (FP4 or Delta 100)?

I have 2 rolls of 35mm Arista EDU Ultra 100, but that may not be a good choice. The last time I tried that w/ D76 things looked grainy and high contrast (shot in bright sun).

FP4 and Delta 100 should look good in R09 1:100. It will look good already after 30 min. Start with max 20 C (68 F) and let it cool down, or you may keep 18 C from the start. Lower temperature helps keep grain smaller. Agfa APX 100 in this combination was giving no visible grain in 8x10 from 35mm film.
Arista Edu is a Foma and if you rated it at ISO 100 no wonder you've got grain and contrast. Most people rate this film at ISO 50 and develop accordingly. Me to. What you did is you underexpose and overdevelop the film, pure pushing, doesn't work well with Foma 100. Otherwise it is OK material, I like it.

AgX · Jan 12, 2014

timor said:
What I understand the genuine Rodinal recipe is in legal limbo and cannot be used by any developer maker. R 09 is exactly, what it is a R 09 also called Calbe R 09. It is not patented forerunner to Rodinal, so it is very similar in action.

There are NO legal boundaries laid upon the Rodinal recipe. The patent is about 120 years old and free since generations.
There also is no forerunner to Rodinal.

In some countries the trademark Rodinal is still protected.

timor · Jan 12, 2014

AgX said:
There are NO legal boundaries laid upon the Rodinal recipe. The patent is about 120 years old and free since generations.
There also is no forerunner to Rodinal.

In some countries the trademark Rodinal is still protected.

Maybe you are right, so what is Calbe R09 ?

Photo-gear · Jan 12, 2014

By the way, the only way to get Rodinal (because of the restrictions across borders) in Canada is to buy a product called Blazinal. Commercial restrictions force Maco to sell Rodinal under a different name in this country.

Here the address of the Canadian distributor:
Kindermann Canada Inc.
361 Steelcase Road West
Unit 3
Markham, ON L3R 3V8
Tel: (905) 940-9262 Fax: (905) 479-9755
info@kindermann.ca

But timor is right, the Rodinal recipe is nobody's property.

joh · Jan 13, 2014

So far I have read somewhere Rodinal is more concentrated than R09.
Rodinal 1+25 = R09 1+20 , Rodinal 1+50 = R09 1+40 , etc.....
But I don't know if it is the only difference,
after the worldwar 2 R09 was made by the east german agfa (or orwo) and Rodinal was made by west german agfa.

timor · Jan 13, 2014

Photo-gear said:
But timor is right, the Rodinal recipe is nobody's property.

Not me, AgX. This all legal wrangling around Agfa bancrupcy is giving me headache.
And thanks for bringing up a Canadian name for Rodinal - Blazinal. I have a 500 ccm bottle of this thing standing on my shelf, but no heart to open it. I lost confidence in it. For 10 years I was happy user of ORWO R-09, this thing never failed, even open for 2 years, black like an ink, was doing its job with reliance. Than came Agfa Rodinal to my darkroom, it lasted maybe 6 months in open bottle and I had to dump it. Next bottle of Agfa Rodinal crystallized in three months, unopened. And I mean 25% of the bottle were crystals. No any developing power off course. Blazinal is standing unopened for a year and a half now. No crystals so far, just became dark. So you guys tell me, what's going on with that recipe of Rodinal. How many of them are there ? And which could be trusted 6 months after opening ?

NB23 · Jan 13, 2014

timor said:
Not me, AgX. This all legal wrangling around Agfa bancrupcy is giving me headache.
And thanks for bringing up a Canadian name for Rodinal - Blazinal. I have a 500 ccm bottle of this thing standing on my shelf, but no heart to open it. I lost confidence in it. For 10 years I was happy user of ORWO R-09, this thing never failed, even open for 2 years, black like an ink, was doing its job with reliance. Than came Agfa Rodinal to my darkroom, it lasted maybe 6 months in open bottle and I had to dump it. Next bottle of Agfa Rodinal crystallized in three months, unopened. And I mean 25% of the bottle were crystals. No any developing power off course. Blazinal is standing unopened for a year and a half now. No crystals so far, just became dark. So you guys tell me, what's going on with that recipe of Rodinal. How many of them are there ? And which could be trusted 6 months after opening ?

I've had an original bottle of Rodinal and two bottles of Blazinal, used them in rotation. The Blazinal lasted for 5 years without problems.
I personally believe that Blazinal is the real thing. 100% sure.

timor · Jan 13, 2014

NB23 said:
I've had an original bottle of Rodinal and two bottles of Blazinal, used them in rotation. The Blazinal lasted for 5 years without problems.
I personally believe that Blazinal is the real thing. 100% sure.

Good, so there is a hope. Thanks NB.

Soeren · Jan 13, 2014

timor said:
Not me, AgX. This all legal wrangling around Agfa bancrupcy is giving me headache.
And thanks for bringing up a Canadian name for Rodinal - Blazinal. I have a 500 ccm bottle of this thing standing on my shelf, but no heart to open it. I lost confidence in it. For 10 years I was happy user of ORWO R-09, this thing never failed, even open for 2 years, black like an ink, was doing its job with reliance. Than came Agfa Rodinal to my darkroom, it lasted maybe 6 months in open bottle and I had to dump it. Next bottle of Agfa Rodinal crystallized in three months, unopened. And I mean 25% of the bottle were crystals. No any developing power off course. Blazinal is standing unopened for a year and a half now. No crystals so far, just became dark. So you guys tell me, what's going on with that recipe of Rodinal. How many of them are there ? And which could be trusted 6 months after opening ?

Thats wierd. I've been told the crystal are supposed to be there and in fact the two last botles of Rodinal Ive used had them from purchase and worked fine anyway. Now Im down to the last ml's so what to do next?
Best regards

timor · Jan 13, 2014

Soeren said:
Thats wierd. I've been told the crystal are supposed to be there and in fact the two last botles of Rodinal Ive used had them from purchase and worked fine anyway. Now Im down to the last ml's so what to do next?
Best regards

I know about some crystals, not the whole heck of them. It happened only once, not before, not after with Blazinal. After 1.5 year of standing in the same conditions no single crystal in it. If this is a Maco product, buy from Maco.

timor · Jan 13, 2014

joh said:
So far I have read somewhere Rodinal is more concentrated than R09.
Rodinal 1+25 = R09 1+20 , Rodinal 1+50 = R09 1+40 , etc.....
But I don't know if it is the only difference,
after the worldwar 2 R09 was made by the east german agfa (or orwo) and Rodinal was made by west german agfa.

It was long time ago but I think the dilutions given for ORWO R09 were 1+20, 1+60, 1+80, 1+100, 1+150, 1+200 and 1+40 was the basic dilution for which the times were given. For every other dilution there was a specific multiplier. Also remember opinions from that times, that ORWO R 09 was made by the original Rodinal recipe, unchanged until the end, while Agfa made changes supposedly to shorten the shelf life and increase sales.

piu58 · Jan 13, 2014

AgX said:
There are NO legal boundaries laid upon the Rodinal recipe. The patent is about 120 years old and free since generations.
There also is no forerunner to Rodinal.

In some countries the trademark Rodinal is still protected.

Rodinal was invented by Agfa, Wolfen. In 1964, Ulbricht disclaimed the Agfa trademark for the film company Wolfen. All chemicals were renamed, Rodinal changed to R09. R09 ist the "orginal" Rodinal, which was patent pending unteil end of WWII. It was

water 75 ml
p-Aminophenol 5.5 g
potassium sulphite sicc. 4 g
potassium hydroxide 4 g
potassium bromide 1 g
Na4EDTA 2 g
water to 100 ml

Agfa / Leverkusen changed the recipe over teh years so that the new Rodinal was different from R09. One great difference: Rodinal was more concentrated, norma dilution is 1+50 (1+40 on R09 / 'original' Rodinal).

The new R09 sold by Mirko ist adapted in concentration since some years so that 1+50 is the standard concentration too.

piu58 · Jan 13, 2014

> I've been told the crystal are supposed to be there

That is potassoim carbonate formed from the hydroxide by aerial carbon dioxide. Carbonate is less soluble and crystallizes. New bottles should not contain any crystals.

miha · Jan 13, 2014

Filling Adonal bottles from a 210L barrel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lFSeTUA3Z8

jochen · Jan 13, 2014

Hello,
I think that the crystals are p-aminophenol. The solubility of the p-aminophenol is borderline. In some formula it is recommended to leave some crystals undissolved.

AgX · Jan 13, 2014

piu58 said:
Rodinal was invented by Agfa, Wolfen.

Not quite... Rodinal was invented by Andresen, a organic chemist, and amateur photographer, who worked for Agfa who then produced Rodinal and other of his inventions. Only due to the success of Rodinal an additional photo division was erected at Agfa, who up to then made their money with dyestuffs.
Agfa was located in Berlin. Wolfen was still an unimportant village. It only became the location of Agfa's Filmplant about 20 years later.

With the erection of a second, western Agfa in 1952 after the division of Germany a complex legal situation arouse. More complex than you depicted. This was mutually settled in 1964, with the primary company (Berlin/Wolfen) changing all their tradenames, and the new one (Leverkusen) taken in all the traditional tradenames.

#1 Son · Jan 13, 2014

AgX said:
Not quite... Rodinal was invented by Andresen, a organic chemist, and amateur photographer, who worked for Agfa who then produced Rodinal and other of his inventions. Only due to the success of Rodinal an additional photo division was erected at Agfa, who up to then made their money with dyestuffs.
Agfa was located in Berlin. Wolfen was still an unimportant village. It only became the location of Agfa's Filmplant about 20 years later.

With the erection of a second, western Agfa in 1952 after the division of Germany a complex legal situation arouse. More complex than you depicted. This was mutually settled in 1964, with the primary company (Berlin/Wolfen) changing all their tradenames, and the new one (Leverkusen) taken in all the traditional tradenames.

USPTO states that Adox owns the trademark "Rodinal". But Rodinal (the formula) is public domain, and has been since 1892 and 1893 German ruling.. Agfa did not erect a second plant. They purchase Hauff Chemical Works in 1952, because Hauff came out of World War 2 penniless. The Wolfen plant was destroyed by the Allies, because it was used to produce war materials. As stated in the Potts Dam agreements 1945. The 1964 agreement, had to do with the French leaving or staying in the Lorraine area, and maintaining control over the industries there.

#1 Son

piu58 · Jan 14, 2014

AgX said:
Not quite... Rodinal was invented by Andresen, ... More complex than you depicted.

Thank you for clearing.

Roger Cole · Jan 14, 2014

I have a bottle of Agfa Rodinal that dates from the early 90s, almost but not quite full. I developed a few rolls of 35mm, never could get results I actually liked and stopped using it. I still have that bottle so it will be interesting to see how and if it still works - bet it does.

Xmas · Jan 14, 2014

Roger Cole said:
I have a bottle of Agfa Rodinal that dates from the early 90s, almost but not quite full. I developed a few rolls of 35mm, never could get results I actually liked and stopped using it. I still have that bottle so it will be interesting to see how and if it still works - bet it does.

Hi Roger
I bought a bottle in '79 and (after Kodachrome 25 was stopped in 02 or so ) when I went to get another two bricks in '04 and the assistant said cancelled years ago, so I bought two bricks of 64. And went back to monochrome and Rodinal my bottle was quarter full from '79 when I switched to Kodachrome 25. stopping mono completely. That is only a 25 year test in quarter full, the dregs were still ok in '05.
The rule in '79 was only use it with 100 ISO or slower, cause of grain, but I used Agfa 100 and 400 with recommended times and temps at 1:50, cause I like grain. If you don't like grain it might be different.
People say stand without agitation for 60 mins at 1:100 is ok, and I sometimes use that when I can find the kitchen timer, it seems to over develop high lights but does hold shadows reasonably, agitation would burn the highlights more.
Noel

Is Fomadon R09 the Same as Rodinal?

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