Is Fixer Fixer?

DieHipsterDie · Oct 4, 2006

Are most fixers more or less the same? Is a non-hardening rapid fixer a non-hardening rapid fixer? Any reason to spend more on fixer or is it all about the same quality and does it really effect the final print.

Same question for stop bath.

Neal · Oct 4, 2006

Dear DieHipsterDie,

This is a poor answer to your question, but I have found that Kodak liquid fixers last (storage time) much longer than cheap generic fixers. However, cheap generic fixers clear the film very nicely.

Neal Wydra

reellis67 · Oct 4, 2006

There are a lot of details here, and someone else will have to give the fine specifics, but there are a couple of different types of fixers. There is plain hypo, which is one compound, there is rapid fixer, which is an ammonia-based compound and which does not require HCA, and then there is, for lack of a better term, fixer, which does require HCA.

Rapid fixers convert unused silver to a compound that rapidly washed out while 'regular' fixer converts it to a compound that does not. The HCA step does not negate the fixer, but converts the compound created by regular fixer into a compound that does wash out easily, hence the shorter wash times when HCA or 'rapid' fixer is used.

As I understand it, hardener helps to protect the emulsion (print and film) when it is wet and is not required with many modern film emulsions and only with paper emulsions when they will be wet for a long time or at high temperatures. Hardener does have an effect on the end print result in that toning is more difficult to accomplish well when a hardener was used on the print.

As far as stop baths go, there are different types, but they all do the same thing - change the pH so that development stops. I use water for a stop bath because my film development times are longer and I prefer to use a rapid fixer, which does not work well with an acid stop bath. I use it for prints because of the fixer I use.

- Randy

srs5694 · Oct 4, 2006

Fixers vary in several ways, most or all of which relate to convenience and use issues, such as:

Rapid vs. non-rapid
Hardening vs. non-hardening
Level of pH (acid, neutral, or alkaline)
Liquid vs. powder delivery form
Required wash time (this is mostly a factor of the hardening status and the pH of the fixer, as I understand it)

AFAIK, none of these factors affects the image you get out of the film, at least assuming you use the products correctly. The hardening vs. non-hardening issue could affect the sensitivity of film to scratches, particularly for films that aren't very well hardened, such as Efke films.

nalle52 · Oct 5, 2006

There are also odourless fix, be careful with this printing, I have had a lot of problem with this typ of fix together with Bergger paper. I think this fix is to weak for fiber paper, you should also be careful using this with film. Read directions on the bottle.

DieHipsterDie · Oct 5, 2006

Thanks guys. My question is more about the quality of cheap fixers verses more expensive brands. Does a $2/liter non-hardening rapid fixer work as well as a $10/liter fixer with the same features?

Nick Zentena · Oct 5, 2006

One thing to look at is concentration and yield. 1 litre of stock doesn't always give you the same.

Lowell Huff · Oct 5, 2006

nalle52 said:
There are also odourless fix, be careful with this printing, I have had a lot of problem with this typ of fix together with Bergger paper. I think this fix is to weak for fiber paper, you should also be careful using this with film. Read directions on the bottle.

We make ODORLESS FIXER. It has the same amount of Ammonium thiosulfate as our RAPID FIXER. Fixer only removes unexposed silver halide, it does not recognize whether it is on paper or film, or RC or Fiber base. Conclusion: Fixer strength is not determined by the photographic substrate.

nalle52 · Oct 6, 2006

Lowell Huff said:
We make ODORLESS FIXER. It has the same amount of Ammonium thiosulfate as our RAPID FIXER. Fixer only removes unexposed silver halide, it does not recognize whether it is on paper or film, or RC or Fiber base. Conclusion: Fixer strength is not determined by the photographic substrate.

I used Amaloco X88 together with Bergger paper and got stain marks on the prints after drying, I change fix to Amaloco X89 and the problem disappeared. I have been working as a sales guy at Kameradoktorn in Stockholm for 17 years specialized in darkroom equipment, and a lot of customers have had problem with X88, it says on the bottle that you have to use stop to get this fix working correctly, with out stop some customers Tmax 400 neg faded away. I am not a chemist, but I saw a lot of problem with this fix. Thats why I say read the instruction on the bottle.

nalle52 · Oct 6, 2006

nalle52 said:
I used Amaloco X88 together with Bergger paper and got stain marks on the prints after drying, I change fix to Amaloco X89 and the problem disappeared. I have been working as a sales guy at Kameradoktorn in Stockholm for 17 years specialized in darkroom equipment, and a lot of customers have had problem with X88, it says on the bottle that you have to use stop to get this fix working correctly, with out stop some customers Tmax 400 neg faded away. I am not a chemist, but I saw a lot of problem with this fix. Thats why I say read the instruction on the bottle.

I should add that I like the Amaloca chemistry, but regarding X88 its important to read the instruction, I know Jaap von Beugen that runs Amaloco for a long time, a real nice guy. So I am not complaining Amaloco products. I now use Amaloco X89 that works very well.

smieglitz · Oct 6, 2006

reellis67 said:
... there is rapid fixer, which is an ammonia-based compound and which does not require HCA, and then there is, for lack of a better term, fixer, which does require HCA.

Rapid fixers convert unused silver to a compound that rapidly washed out while 'regular' fixer converts it to a compound that does not...

This is the first I've ever heard of this difference. Can you point me to an authoritative source to confirm the above?

I think it possible but wonder why I've never heard of ammonium thiosulphate fixers not requiring HCA.

Thanks,

Joe

juan · Oct 6, 2006

I thought the rapid fixers required far less time in the fix, thus it's easier to wash out the fixer - whether or not HCA is used. At least in theory.
juan

reellis67 · Oct 6, 2006

Joe,

I'm certainly no expert, but I have read, and I will try to find you the specific reference, that non-rapid fixers convert unused silver to one compund that is not easily washed out, which is in turn then converted to a compund that *is* easy to wash out by the HCA bath. Rapid fixers convert directly to this end compound and therefore don't need the HCA bath.

OK, I'm at work, but I just happen to have brought some reading material (don't ask) with me.

Page 106 of 'Film Developing Cookbook', bullet item #2
Photographer's Formulary Tech document for TF-4 Fixer, bullet item #1

There could be others, but I can't get to the rest of my library right now to search for them. As I said, I'm no expert, but I've never been led astray (to date anyway) by either of these references.

- Randy

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 6, 2006

According to Grant Haist (Modern Photographic Processing pages 633 -634) "The composition, pH and state of exhaustion of the fixing bath were found to be primary factors influencing the rate of washing."

Kodak's comparison of the Kodak F-5 Fixing Bath (Sodium Thiosulfate-Potassium Alum-Boric Acid) and a 14.4% Ammonium Thiosulfate bath (a rapid fixing bath) showed that the Ammonium Thiosulfate bath had a 30% greater washing rate than the F-5 formulation.

Hypo clearing Salt baths are commonly used to aid washing of film and paper after fixing. Hypo Clearing Agents: A 2% solution of sodium sulfite is often used for this purpose (or a Sodium Sulfite solution buffered with Sodium Bisulfite.

A mixture of Sodium Sulfite and Sodium Bisulfite can be added to the fixer bath to facilitate washing out fixing residues (Haist page 655).

reellis67 · Oct 6, 2006

Haist is referenced by the Film Developing Cookbook in the fixer section, but no specific quote is provided. It is used in reference to the concept presented by Kodak researchers that the sodium thiosulfate fixers were inadequte for use with modern films and papers, but states that further investigation was interrupted due to Kodaks abrupt closure of it's research facility.

- Randy

oscroft · Oct 6, 2006

Rapid fixers convert unused silver to a compound that rapidly washed out while 'regular' fixer converts it to a compound that does not.

Back when I started, 35 years ago, I didn't have rapid fixer (just sodium thiosulphate) or HCA, but the fixed silver compound washed out just fine (and the negs are still prisitine to prove it).

Best regards,
Alan

reellis67 · Oct 6, 2006

oscroft said:
Back when I started, 35 years ago, I didn't have rapid fixer (just sodium thiosulphate) or HCA, but the fixed silver compound washed out just fine (and the negs are still prisitine to prove it).

Best regards,
Alan

Please note the word 'easily' in the quote. My understanding is that this refers to the wash times rather than overall ability.

- Randy

reellis67 · Oct 6, 2006

Ah! I knew I could find that reference. Please see page 84 of The Darkroom Cookbook for a more detailed description of my reference to an intermediary compound when using Sodium thiosulfate fixers. I was mistaken in noting that Ammonium thiosulfate fixers skip the intermediary compund though. According to this source, it is simply much faster in converting to the end compound and therefore does not need the HCA bath to speed the process along.

- Randy

Is Fixer Fixer?

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency