Is Critique A Requirement to Learning Photography?

MattKing · Jul 1, 2018

I don't think critique is a requirement for learning, although it can be helpful.
I do think though that photography can be an incredibly solitary pursuit, which can definitely get in the way of learning.
So I do think that interaction with others is a requirement for learning. The quality (and qualities) of interaction are very important.
To be able to look at your photography through the eyes of another is often a great benefit, especially if they are generous in sharing about their own photography, and the photography of others.
I'm lucky to be a member of two different moderate size photographic groups. Both groups have roots in the photo club (we don't often call them camera clubs up here now) scene, but they also have a disparate set of other experiences. Without exception, the people in those groups are generous in their time, efforts, interest and consideration when it comes to each other's goals and interests. And there are really wide differences in approach spread between the group members.
Each of us can say something quite critical about another group member's photograph, and it is always said and received with respect and interest. Often disagreed with, but always respected.
And as for titles, I confess that I pay a lot of attention to them. In some cases, I use them as part of the tool case, when I'm trying to emphasize or clarify something in a photograph. But I am just as likely to have fun with them. If they help a viewer bring a smile and some generous spirit to a photograph, then how can that hurt? They also offer one further, really important advantage - they make it much easier to identify a particular photograph when I'm discussing several.

Arklatexian · Jul 1, 2018

elmontanero said:
As a high school photo teacher I have to tread the line on this constantly. The short answer is Yes... a good critique is fundamental for growing. It's loaded with perils though.
At the end of every major assignment we assemble the whole class and go through them. Digital class so they're projected to over five feet. I try to direct the best I can.
First Quarter of the semester class is "puppy dogs and ice cream, rainbows and unicorns": Positive feedback only for each other. Student gets their critique then comments on the next two presenters. Takes a long time. I will give more "critical" feedback. Mostly Technical: focus, depth choice, appropriate Shutter Speed. Some composition info: Move closer, eliminate distracting elements. We do a "still wet" look mid assignment with hopes that students will go out and make the changes. (digital is so fast and they still won't always go out and fix the problem) I do not allow photo editing till after the first 45 of the 90 days, good capture is the focus.
After that initial break we move to a couple of different forms. Students will look at the work of another student and make a full commentary on paper, including what I call " the Plus One " which could make the picture better. One of the better ones is "Dead Artist" review. Student doesn't speak about their own work and the reviewers go first, students have to write down major points of the reviewers comments. This allows them to see though the other person's eyes rather than their own. The student can give comment at the end or can just say, "Thanks". I do not allow comments like, "this doesn't work for me", "I don't get it", and other vague nonsense. Usually it's only said to put someone down and elevate the person saying it.
A colleague says comments need to be "k.i.s.h": kind, intelligent, specific, helpful. Honestly for the kids - they learn a bunch by commenting about someone else's work - about their own work.
Good Critiques are (as touchy, feely as it sounds) in a trustworthy room. The 45 days of positive help foster that, the latter 45 are focused on, "this could make it even better" type of responses. In a work full of throw away "likes" - which mean no more on the 'gram or FB than "I saw it". Really talking about someone's work is another thing altogether. I try to point out that my best friend takes the time to tell me good things - but also will tell me when I'm blowing it. A doctor that only focuses on the good lab results would be a terrible doctor - you need to know the points of improvement. It's not always good, but I would feel remiss if they'd never been in an art critique and then went to college and were devastated. (my experience)
I didn't have as much good direction as a young photographer. I get even less as an adult. The only feedback of "did this sell" isn't good enough to me. Pop music sells - and it's crap for the most part. So as a man approaching 50 with alarming speed - I'm taking classes at the local Community College. Having a deadline, making prints in a darkroom, knowing there's a critique to get ready for has been nothing short of a blessing to my work. The critiques aren't as good there as I'd hoped for, but meeting with the professor - whose work I admire - has made me think about my work much more than before.
I'm constantly trying to make every critique better and more useful for the students.

Well said!......Regards!

Arklatexian · Jul 1, 2018

slackercrurster said:
OP...sometimes helps, sometimes irritation.

I tried to join a local shutterbug club. I was not looking for critique, just looking for community. But they didn't want me as a member. Most of them were landscapers, sunset and flower photogs.

I did benefit when going from film to digital years ago. A lady advised me my online Tumblr was a mess. Jumbled up with all sort of things. That clued me into making dedicated websites for certain projects.

But for the most part I am not looking for critique. If you are in need of critiques, try online portfolio reviews. You can hire photogs you admire for a fraction of what it costs to go to a review on the other side of the country in a f2f to get critiques from people you may not be interested in hearing from.

Maybe you didn't want them because" most of all them were landscapers, sunset and flower photographers.," What were you looking for?.........Regards!

Arklatexian · Jul 1, 2018

faberryman said:
I only see ribbons and awards at camera clubs or the state fair, places that reward the happy accident rather than the body of work.

It is obvious that you have never been to a camera club or society sponsored International Photo Salon and seen pictures from all over the world and damn few "happy accident" if any. Ours was usually shown at our State Fair. and B&W prints alone represented the work of over 400 entries, each entering 4 prints, of which only about 30% were deemed good enough for exhibition. Better yet, enter one yourself and see how "easy" it is to be included in the exhibition. There are photo organizations and there are photo organizations. Some are, indeed, frivolous. Some are more serious than this group about "photography", not just equipment and chemicals.........Regards!....These exhibitions exist in most of the same countries that members of this group live in.

hoffy · Jul 1, 2018

Photo Salon's are a curious one.

The closest I came was a regional competition. I entered one image only (only because I was a president of a club) and got a merit. While I had a level of pride, I soon forgot about it.

I know a few who regularly do international salons. The impression I got was that it became bucket list ticking - get enough ticks and you earn the right to put some letters after you name.

Bill Burk · Jul 2, 2018

I just realized you have quite a bit of media posted...

I really like the hat shop and liberty protesting shots...

blockend · Jul 2, 2018

Unless you want to practice professionally, I've never seen the point of official accreditation. The business doesn't care, art directors have only ever been interested in a portfolio and track record. If you're working for your own interest, or selling books and prints, people won't stop buying them because there are no letters after your name. The only use I can see for a BIPP tag (the British professional credit) is in photojournalism, of which there's precious little left and on which your portfolio and interview is more likely to get a gig, or as a high street portraitist where a certificate is a means of public reassurance. A BIPP, RPS or MPA assessor would have kittens at my working methods and those of many respected photographers.

Titling images is a difficult one. A title on a photograph is a form of alliteration, an admission that the image alone isn't sufficiently arresting to hold the viewer. However some photographs are helped by a title, place, date or whatever. it depends on context. A title has never made a bad photo into a good one, but it can risk making a good shot corny. Architecture, portraits, landscapes, a location may help, street photography, abstracts, "art" photography titles are a minefield.

Ste_S · Jul 2, 2018

Is Critique A Requirement to Learning Photography?

Absolutely, but internal rather than external critique. The number one thing that makes you better as a photographer is understanding why you yourself like or dislike your photos and then using that knowledge to improve next time. After all, for the majority of us we're shooting to please ourselves first and foremost.

removed account4 · Jul 2, 2018

its helpful to have one's worked critiqued but if someone isn't used to
being told that something doesn't work, that it could be done better
that their way of doing things is terrible, that it was done better by " so and so
and is not anything new or even 'good'" that their photographs aren't even photographs ...
then it might be a bit scary, frightening, soul crushing to be told by strangers or
people who are on a pedestal, or paid $300clams for a "speed date critique session"
takes a thick skin which a lot of people don't have.
on the other hand its possible to just enjoy what one is doing, with no raking over the coals
with glad hands shaking with smiles, happy comments because whether it is critiqued or not
it is often done for fun and enjoyment, not so one could wear all black wearing sunglasses at night.

YMMV

ReginaldSMith · Jul 2, 2018

Ste_S said:
Is Critique A Requirement to Learning Photography?

Absolutely, but internal rather than external critique. The number one thing that makes you better as a photographer is understanding why you yourself like or dislike your photos and then using that knowledge to improve next time. After all, for the majority of us we're shooting to please ourselves first and foremost.

Certainly workable for some. But there is always the issue, "how to know what you don't know?" So, even in the context of photographing "for my own pleasure" I want to learn how to take that adventure as far as it will go, as far as I am capable of taking it.

ReginaldSMith · Jul 2, 2018

Bill Burk said:
I just realized you have quite a bit of media posted...

I really like the hat shop and liberty protesting shots...

Thanks. You also just inadvertently made a point about the downside of too much description in titles. The "Liberty" photograph is not a protest. The young man worked for the "Liberty Tax Preparation" firm, and was sent out to the curb as a human advert. I think it is wonderful that your take was that it looked like a protest. When I took it, I just loved the irony of it. A total shite job hawking "liberty."

removed account4 · Jul 2, 2018

ReginaldSMith said:
Thanks. You also just inadvertently made a point about the downside of too much description in titles. The "Liberty" photograph is not a protest. The young man worked for the "Liberty Tax Preparation" firm, and was sent out to the curb as a human advert. I think it is wonderful that your take was that it looked like a protest. When I took it, I just loved the irony of it. A total shite job hawking "liberty."

i knew that guy, he and his brother and sister statues are near us too and usually dances around at the stop lights to get people's attention.
in the advertising world they aren't called human advertising but "visibilities".

ReginaldSMith · Jul 2, 2018

jnanian said:
i knew that guy, he and his brother and sister statues are near us too and usually dances around at the stop lights to get people's attention.
in the advertising world they aren't called human advertising but "visibilities".

Thanks. I've never heard that term. It's such a typical corporate euphemism for tool. When we are in the desert, we see these human signs out in 122F weather in the blazing sun. They are on every major intersection. These are the entry level jobs today. Talk about a dystopian dead end street for youth.

ReginaldSMith · Jul 2, 2018

blockend said:
Unless you want to practice professionally, I've never seen the point of official accreditation.

Have you ever seen the maniacal titles bestowed by the PSA?

From the PSA web site:
Minimum Requirements
(Star Ratings Certificates are proof of the number of acceptances you have received.)

QUALIFIED (QPSA): 54
PROFICIENCY (PPSA): 288
EXCELLENCE (EPSA): 700
MASTER (MPSA): 1,500
MASTER 2 (MPSA2): 2250 (beginning August 1, 2018)
GRAND MASTER (GMPSA): 3,000
GRAND MASTER BRONZE (GMPSA/b): 5,000
GRAND MASTER SILVER (GMPSA/s): 7,000
GRAND MASTER GOLD (GMPSA/g): 9,000
GRAND MASTER PLATINUM (GMPSA/p): 11,000

NEW: As of August 1, 2018, PSA members with 2250 acceptances may apply for a MPSA2 distinction.
END

removed account4 · Jul 2, 2018

ive often thought of having a job light that, it actually looks like it could be as fun as you make it.
maybe have a go-pro camera somewhere .. give away free helium baloons, make a real party out of it...
the problem is they'd probably pay as a "consultant" so the alleged $9/hour would be like $4/hour after taxes
and after the costume rental, they'd break-even ...
back in the 30s a sandwich board was cheep !

Bob Carnie · Jul 2, 2018

ReginaldSMith said:
Have you ever seen the maniacal titles bestowed by the PSA?

From the PSA web site:
Minimum Requirements
(Star Ratings Certificates are proof of the number of acceptances you have received.)

QUALIFIED (QPSA): 54

PROFICIENCY (PPSA): 288

EXCELLENCE (EPSA): 700

MASTER (MPSA): 1,500

MASTER 2 (MPSA2): 2250 (beginning August 1, 2018)

GRAND MASTER (GMPSA): 3,000

GRAND MASTER BRONZE (GMPSA/b): 5,000

GRAND MASTER SILVER (GMPSA/s): 7,000

GRAND MASTER GOLD (GMPSA/g): 9,000

GRAND MASTER PLATINUM (GMPSA/p): 11,000

NEW: As of August 1, 2018, PSA members with 2250 acceptances may apply for a MPSA2 distinction.
END

This is a Marketing Plan for every photographer in local areas to prove to their surrounding community that they are a big frog in a small pond.

Unfortunately this qualification process takes any hope of these photographers learning the love of photography, rather they learn the business of photography which in itself is good if they can be successful and
raise their family's. I know many of these photographers with more ribbons on their chests and I always have to keep my cynicism to myself,, At one time in my life I almost got sucked into this Mantra. I probably would
have made a ton of money.

Bob Carnie · Jul 2, 2018

jnanian said:
ive often thought of having a job light that, it actually looks like it could be as fun as you make it.
maybe have a go-pro camera somewhere .. give away free helium baloons, make a real party out of it...
the problem is they'd probably pay as a "consultant" so the alleged $9/hour would be like $4/hour after taxes
and after the costume rental, they'd break-even ...
back in the 30s a sandwich board was cheep !

John - rent a small pony and walk around the neighbourhood and take instamatic or fuji instant camera pics of children with the pony.. you will make a gold mine.

Ste_S · Jul 2, 2018

ReginaldSMith said:
Certainly workable for some. But there is always the issue, "how to know what you don't know?" So, even in the context of photographing "for my own pleasure" I want to learn how to take that adventure as far as it will go, as far as I am capable of taking it.

Buy lots of photobooks

Sirius Glass · Jul 2, 2018

ReginaldSMith said:
The "camera club" stories are amusing. I feel fortunate to have had a good experience with one. Possibly just the right mix of people, good leadership, and a general disdain for the sort of regimental ideas of the PSA. (Impact! Impact! Impact!)

I have visited some others though, which after a visit or two, I knew would not be my cup of tea. In a general sense, "clubs" have a tendency to be all about clubiness: charters, bylaws, officers, committees, and the like.

There are camera clubs and there are camera clubs. The trick is to find one with people that you can determine are knowledgeable and helpful. Anyone can talk trash. One coworker who was an accomplished nature photographer complained the some of the trees in a Yosemite print of mine were leaning over in several directions. When I pointed out that that was were the Merced river had flooded its banks several years before and many of the trees had been knocked askew, he got huffy and walked away.

Sirius Glass · Jul 2, 2018

elmontanero said:
As a high school photo teacher I have to tread the line on this constantly. The short answer is Yes... a good critique is fundamental for growing. It's loaded with perils though.
At the end of every major assignment we assemble the whole class and go through them. Digital class so they're projected to over five feet. I try to direct the best I can.
First Quarter of the semester class is "puppy dogs and ice cream, rainbows and unicorns": Positive feedback only for each other. Student gets their critique then comments on the next two presenters. Takes a long time. I will give more "critical" feedback. Mostly Technical: focus, depth choice, appropriate Shutter Speed. Some composition info: Move closer, eliminate distracting elements. We do a "still wet" look mid assignment with hopes that students will go out and make the changes. (digital is so fast and they still won't always go out and fix the problem) I do not allow photo editing till after the first 45 of the 90 days, good capture is the focus.
After that initial break we move to a couple of different forms. Students will look at the work of another student and make a full commentary on paper, including what I call " the Plus One " which could make the picture better. One of the better ones is "Dead Artist" review. Student doesn't speak about their own work and the reviewers go first, students have to write down major points of the reviewers comments. This allows them to see though the other person's eyes rather than their own. The student can give comment at the end or can just say, "Thanks". I do not allow comments like, "this doesn't work for me", "I don't get it", and other vague nonsense. Usually it's only said to put someone down and elevate the person saying it.
A colleague says comments need to be "k.i.s.h": kind, intelligent, specific, helpful. Honestly for the kids - they learn a bunch by commenting about someone else's work - about their own work.
Good Critiques are (as touchy, feely as it sounds) in a trustworthy room. The 45 days of positive help foster that, the latter 45 are focused on, "this could make it even better" type of responses. In a work full of throw away "likes" - which mean no more on the 'gram or FB than "I saw it". Really talking about someone's work is another thing altogether. I try to point out that my best friend takes the time to tell me good things - but also will tell me when I'm blowing it. A doctor that only focuses on the good lab results would be a terrible doctor - you need to know the points of improvement. It's not always good, but I would feel remiss if they'd never been in an art critique and then went to college and were devastated. (my experience)
I didn't have as much good direction as a young photographer. I get even less as an adult. The only feedback of "did this sell" isn't good enough to me. Pop music sells - and it's crap for the most part. So as a man approaching 50 with alarming speed - I'm taking classes at the local Community College. Having a deadline, making prints in a darkroom, knowing there's a critique to get ready for has been nothing short of a blessing to my work. The critiques aren't as good there as I'd hoped for, but meeting with the professor - whose work I admire - has made me think about my work much more than before.
I'm constantly trying to make every critique better and more useful for the students.

The role of a teacher is a special position and it requires special care and intuition. I like your approach.

removed account4 · Jul 2, 2018

Bob Carnie said:
John - rent a small pony and walk around the neighbourhood and take instamatic or fuji instant camera pics of children with the pony.. you will make a gold mine.

great minds think alike !
gotta find a pony !

Sirius Glass · Jul 2, 2018

I do not put on titles. I let the view think for themselves.

elmontanero · Jul 2, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
The role of a teacher is a special position and it requires special care and intuition. I like your approach.

Thanks. I try to let the student learn after the first few. Preset questions "does every part of your picture tell the story you wanted?" often point a student to think about the trashcan that's in the image, the parked cars behind their portrait. After a little familiarity with the medium, the simple question, "what would you do differently with your image?". I'm very mindful of neither crushing the enthusiasm but also "sobering the shutter release" instead of constantly beating the digital cameras to death.
After the first half of the class I give a "one shot final" that mimics the experience of film a little. They have to fill out a complete page of information about subject, settings, focus, intent, compositional elements - and then and only then take the picture. They get 30 minutes to do it. Jpeg numbers are logged as they exit, checked when they return.
A student could walk out the classroom and take a picture of their shoe for all I care - I just want them to go through the experience of asking themselves "what am I doing with this camera and why am I doing it?" before snapping. They hate it... but report later that it changes their work. I've a few assignments that are not about making good photographs but attempting to make good photographers. The process is important.
My own work is so much more slow, even slower than when I was learning. It's made me a solitary photographer as it's annoying to others.

Sirius Glass · Jul 2, 2018

elmontanero said:
Thanks. I try to let the student learn after the first few. Preset questions "does every part of your picture tell the story you wanted?" often point a student to think about the trashcan that's in the image, the parked cars behind their portrait. After a little familiarity with the medium, the simple question, "what would you do differently with your image?". I'm very mindful of neither crushing the enthusiasm but also "sobering the shutter release" instead of constantly beating the digital cameras to death.
After the first half of the class I give a "one shot final" that mimics the experience of film a little. They have to fill out a complete page of information about subject, settings, focus, intent, compositional elements - and then and only then take the picture. They get 30 minutes to do it. Jpeg numbers are logged as they exit, checked when they return.
A student could walk out the classroom and take a picture of their shoe for all I care - I just want them to go through the experience of asking themselves "what am I doing with this camera and why am I doing it?" before snapping. They hate it... but report later that it changes their work. I've a few assignments that are not about making good photographs but attempting to make good photographers. The process is important.
My own work is so much more slow, even slower than when I was learning. It's made me a solitary photographer as it's annoying to others.

When I was ten I took a photograph of my brother in his scout uniform going to Philmont Scout Ranch. He was standing there smiling with a "Walk" sign hanging off one ear and a "Don't Walk" sign hanging off the other ear. I learned from that to move in, cut out anything extraneous, and carefully check the background.

ReginaldSMith · Jul 3, 2018

Arklatexian said:
The biggest problem most of us have had in having our pictures "critiqued" is in presenting a picture that is absolutely un-interesting, boring, many times beautifully photographed and printed of nothing thereby lacking any form of "impact" which is what gets a viewer's attention and keeps the critiquer from saying the dreaded words: "nice picture, next picture".

There's a big difference between judging and critique. I think contest judging as promoted by so many clubs is a destructive process in photography. All contests, like car races, or bike races, create a set of understood winning methods that are soon copied by every competitor in the quest for the win. It doesn't take long before all the pictures begin to have the same characteristics. In the PSA and clubs that follow those ideas, the word of choice for all photographs is "IMPACT!" This is their holy grail of photography. It's the prized quality above all else. In their theory the value of photography is limited to shock and awe and surprise. The photographic equivalent of a hammer blow to the head. Anything that might require reflection, or contemplation, is not worthy of top consideration. I think they are reflecting perfectly the Madison Avenue goals of advertising - - where they call them "images that stop you in your tracks." That's a sadly limiting view of photography.

Critique begins by using your own standards to judge your own work. This makes the commentary fit your own goals. The critique is a way to measure your progress using your standards, not an artificial one created by others for other work.

I hope you have a better experience in the future.

Is Critique A Requirement to Learning Photography?

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