is an archival print washer necessary?

temujin · Jul 14, 2007

hi all - i am in the process of setting up a home darkroom, and i have most of the important equipment put together. however, money is very tight right now, and i don't really want to shell out a few hundred bucks for an archival print washer. but what i am wondering is, is one neceessary? of course, i know a fiber print must be washed thoroughly for archival permanence, but couldn't one just drill some holes in the bottom of a bucket and place it under the faucet for the duration of wash time? perhaps this is a stupid question, but are there any alternatives to an expensive archival washer? thanks.

Jon Shiu · Jul 14, 2007

You can just use trays and change the water and shuffle them around.

Jon

removed account4 · Jul 14, 2007

ihave both an archival print washer and an archival film washer.
while the film washer is covenient ( fills and dumps by itself via syphon)
as is the print washer ( fills and i release the water to fill again )
i find it just as easy or easier to do it by hand the old fashioned way.

-john

Andy K · Jul 14, 2007

I just set a spare tray on the drainer, put something under one end to tilt it, and run the tap into it.

Lee Shively · Jul 14, 2007

But they are very convenient and save a good bit of time.

jovo · Jul 14, 2007

A lot depends on how many prints you wash at once. Two or three in a tray with a siphon for an hour, plus hypo clearing agent (I don't use it, but it's a good idea) should be sufficient. But, if you're trying to wash more than that at one time, you should either use a proprietary print washer with a separate compartment for each print, or stay with the prints for the duration and separate them by hand and shuffle them in the tray....a lot less convenient.

ann · Jul 14, 2007

we use an archival washing for altnernative process prints as they are very delicate and the dividers help the prints from bouncing agains each other.

There are other ways to archival wash prints that do not involve using an archival washer . People have already suggested several and i don't wish to be redunet.

jeroldharter · Jul 14, 2007

I would say that if you are just starting and money is tight then an archival print washer is impossible to attain and therefore you must improvise. If you do much printing, and have the money then you will certainly buy one.

I have a Summitek 20 x 24 print washer. I can put 20 11x14 prints in it and come back after lunch and they are finished. Very expensive, but very convenient and lasts forever. If you have more time than money, use a tray siphon or soak and dump. After that, get a Versalab. After that, get a regular archival washer.

wildbill · Jul 15, 2007

30 gallon fish tank, 1/8" plexiglass, sharp utility knife, flexible rubber hose.
most fish tanks have a plastic frame around the top, cut notches ever 3/4" inch and cut the plexi to fit in the slots. put the input hose in one end and
another piece on the other end as a siphon. print washer for about $60

highpeak · Jul 15, 2007

Thank you, Wildbill, you just saved me a bundle!

Alex W.

jeroldharter · Jul 15, 2007

If you are going the fish tank route, you might check this out:

http://www.fineartphotosupply.com/printwasherpage.htm

Looks pretty reasonable for the time it will save.

dancqu · Jul 16, 2007

jeroldharter said:
If you are going the fish tank route, you might check this out:
http://www.fineartphotosupply.com/printwasherpage.htm
Looks pretty reasonable for the time it will save.

I'll have to agree 100% with Fred Picker. Quote; "No running
water, no agitation! Archival washing requires time, clean
water, and print separation."

I achieve all that using a tray and hydrophobic separators.
The separator material is available from fabric outlets. It is
known as interfacing and is of non-woven polyester.

Two trays and $5 for the interfacing are all that is needed.
The second tray is used for transfer to fresh water. After an
adequate pre-wash archival processing the prints may be
held in a first tray; 8x10s, perhaps a half dozen.

I won't go into detail as the transfers to and from one tray
to a second is quite straight forward. Be sure though that a
separator is at bottom and on top of stack. Likely any that
use the method will find three soaks after the hold will do.

For those that process in the usual manor I suggest 1, 2,
and 3 hour soaks. I usually overnight my last soak. As a nod
to agitation a transfer with same water can be made once or
twice during any one soak. Simply pour the water from the
one tray to the second then peel and place the prints and
separators in the second. Water use? Extremely low. Dan

Loose Gravel · Jul 16, 2007

I've been scanning family photos today. Some of these are close to 120 years old and look just fine. I don't know what their print washers were then, but they worked.

waileong · Jul 25, 2007

A print washer is very useful when you have 10s of prints to wash. If you don't want to buy, you can make one yourself. Google for a plan and instructions on how to make a washer for under $50.

Gary Holliday · Jul 25, 2007

I use a cheap Paterson RC print washer for all paper types. Gives a fresh flow of clean water.

If FB prints are happy enough leeching, how much water does it require and how long should it be given as a minumum? Would a 20x16 dev tray be fine?

dpurdy · Jul 25, 2007

You might keep an eye on the classifieds. there are a lot of darkrooms going unused and print washers needing new homes. I got a 16x20 zone 6 for free.

dphphoto · Jul 28, 2007

You can always get an Arkay rotary washer cheap. The trick to using them is to not run them very fast, just enough to keep the basket turning. And don't overload.
With care, you can get up to 16X20 into one of these.
Dean

Jon Butler · Jul 28, 2007

An archival washer is not a must but if you intend a lot of FB printing it does speed things up. I do think one is sound investment that lets you to concentrate printing and saves lots of room.

JON

Maris · Jul 29, 2007

I reckon an archival washer is essential if you are going to do consistent production of fibre based gelatin-silver photographs. To do without it makes a day's work in the darkroom a downright chore instead of a pleasure.

Maybe I'm just getting old and tired but making 30 good 8x10's in a day, with the right grading, burning, dodging, and toning pretty well does me in. I can do more but tiredness means more mistakes and more waste. If I then had to do another hour of mind numbing, utterly uncreative, flipping, sloshing, and interleaving pictures, plus tray wrangling just to get a good wash of those hard-won photographs I'd go spare.

Much better is to load up the washer, set the timer (a $5 garden tap timer), turn the tap on and go upstairs for a scotch or two. Everything washes perfectly with no handling damage, kink marks, crumpled corners, dings, or scratches.

Another advantage of an archival washer is that everything made in the darkroom either goes in the trash or through the washer. That way I don't have to keep track of what is washed properly and what is contaminated in the mounting and framing workshop. It's all clean.

dancqu · Jul 31, 2007

Gary Holliday said:
If FB prints are happy enough leeching, how much water
does it require and how long should it be given as a minumum?
Would a 20x16 dev tray be fine?

A lot will depend on the pre-wash processing. If some
prints are being held after having been fixed and hca'ed in
solutions near their capacity then more wash time may be
expected. Tray size should be print size. The separators
should be print size. After a hca and then a hold-rinse-
soak a liter of fresh water each 8x10 should do. Hold
to first to second to third soaks. Dump and squeeze
out the water then transfer. Two separators on
top to keep prints under, on tray bottom one
measure of water, my measure 320ml.

Give my post #12 a read. A good test of washing is the
HT-2 test. Settle for no less than zero stain. Dan

fschifano · Jul 31, 2007

...and then there's the old Kodak Tray siphon. They are not being made anymore but they pop up on Ebay every now and then. They work well and you shouldn't have to spend more than $30 for it. Even if the connecting hose is bad, it's easy and cheap to fix. You don't even need another tray.

dslater · Jul 31, 2007

I'm not sure what you consider too expensive, but I have a Patterson Auto Washer that I use for my FB prints. They're $149.00 at Adorama, but I got mine on ebay for about $60-$70. Before I got this, I just used a tray under running water in the sink. if I had more than one print to wash, I'd sit there constantly shuffling my prints in the tray during the wash.

Will S · Aug 1, 2007

According to David Vestal's Darkroom book, washing times to achieve archival standards vary due to a number of factors, including (but not limited to) the fixer, how long in the fixer, the paper, and the softness/hardness of the water and the water temperature to name a few.

So, washing in a tray may be adequate for you and your particular paper, fixer and water supply, etc. but the only way to know is to test. You can't just put the prints in a box or hang them on the wall and wait 100 years to see if you got it right.

From his battery of tests it seems apparent that the flow rate of the water doesn't matter all that much after the first 30 minutes or so. I now put mine into the washer and just let it run all night, then pull them out in the morning.

But, the only way to know is to test. Someone else's procedure may not work at all for you because your water is 5 degrees colder out of the tap and a lot harder. I think that it is easier to get a bad wash in an archival washer than it is to get a good wash in a tray.

Best,

Will

fotch · Aug 1, 2007

I thought I read here (APUG) that over washing caused problems also. Would have to search it to see if I understood correctly.

dancqu · Aug 1, 2007

dancqu said:
A lot will depend on the pre-wash processing. If some
prints are being held after having been fixed and hca'ed in
solutions near their capacity then more wash time may be
expected. Tray size should be print size. The separators
should be print size. After a hca and then a hold-rinse-
soak a liter of fresh water each 8x10 should do. Hold
to first to second to third soaks. Dump and squeeze
out the water then transfer. Two separators on
top to keep prints under, on tray bottom one
measure of water, my measure 320ml.

Give my post #12 a read. A good test of washing is the
HT-2 test. Settle for no less than zero stain. Dan

Some of the above needs clarifying. I mentioned a liter of
water each 8x10. That one liter is the total amount for the
three soaks; 1/3 liter per soak per 8x10. I think all would
agree that A liter each print is extremely little water. The
3 soak sequence follows a proper fix, hca, hold/rinse.

For those doing a few prints the method works well.
So little water is needed that for the purpose I keep
jugged water at room temperature.

I suggest the HT-2 test be a Home-Brew. Vinegar,
5% acidic acid, and a very small amount of silver nitrate
are needed. The HT-2 test complete or just the silver
nitrate in small quantity can be purchased from
Photographer's Formulary. I'll post a formula
for the HT-2 test using vinegar. Dan

is an archival print washer necessary?

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