Is a stop in the camera the same as a stop at the enlarger?

Your face (in it)

H
Your face (in it)

  • 0
  • 0
  • 0
A window to art

D
A window to art

  • 0
  • 0
  • 25
Bushland Stairway

Bushland Stairway

  • 4
  • 1
  • 72
Rouse st

A
Rouse st

  • 6
  • 3
  • 110

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
199,241
Messages
2,788,424
Members
99,840
Latest member
roshanm
Recent bookmarks
0

Carriage

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
219
Location
Melbourne
Format
35mm
If I take two frames of the same scene but change the exposure by one stop, when I go to print them at the same enlargement will they require exposures different by one stop too? It appears to be the case and would make sense but I was wondering if this was something known.

This came up when I decided I wanted to make some quick small prints so that I could stick them on my walls and live with them for a while before I decide what I want to print larger if at all. What I do is make the first print from a roll with test strips and then for the rest, judge from the contact sheet how different the other frames' exposures are and then do their prints without test strips, just adjusting the exposure by the assumed stops difference. It doesn't always work perfectly (I could be judging the exposure difference incorrectly) but it seems to give me reasonable results.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,411
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
It does not work perfectly because as you raise the enlarger the light falls off as the square of the distance from the paper. Add in the contrast filters and the correlation starts to fall apart.
 
OP
OP

Carriage

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
219
Location
Melbourne
Format
35mm
I'm talking about doing prints of two different negatives at the same enlargement.
 

Bill Burk

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
9,330
Format
4x5 Format
Two stops at the camera would be one stop at the enlarger.

At least if you find that statement true, you have developed your film to an 0.5 contrast which many people like...
 
  • dasBlute
  • dasBlute
  • Deleted
  • Reason: nonesense response

RalphLambrecht

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,663
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
If I take two frames of the same scene but change the exposure by one stop, when I go to print them at the same enlargement will they require exposures different by one stop too? It appears to be the case and would make sense but I was wondering if this was something known.

This came up when I decided I wanted to make some quick small prints so that I could stick them on my walls and live with them for a while before I decide what I want to print larger if at all. What I do is make the first print from a roll with test strips and then for the rest, judge from the contact sheet how different the other frames' exposures are and then do their prints without test strips, just adjusting the exposure by the assumed stops difference. It doesn't always work perfectly (I could be judging the exposure difference incorrectly) but it seems to give me reasonable results.
They are of course totally different and unrelated; film and paper exposure stops are not the same.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2016
Messages
814
Location
Bavaria, Germany
Format
Medium Format
If you under/overexpose your film, you will get thinner/thicker negatives with varying contrast. These negs will require an adjusted exposure when printing, but there is no direct "calculation" to determine the variation.

Anyway, the intensity of the light source varies between enlargers and is not standardised.

-> two independent variables
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,273
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
It is probably a good place to start, but it would be simply coincidence if the result was exactly right.
 

tomfrh

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
653
Location
Sydney, Aust
Format
Medium Format
Hmm, I'm not sure it's as unrelated as being made out!

If, generally speaking, one particlar negative is allowing half as much (or twice as much) light to pass thru, wouldn't supplying twice as much (or half as much) light at the enlarger more or less cancel it out?

There will be some changes, same as a badly underexposed neg prints worse than a normally exposed neg, due to non-linearity of the curves. But one stop? It's hardly that big a deal.
 

rpavich

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2015
Messages
1,520
Location
West virginia, USA
Format
35mm
If I take two frames of the same scene but change the exposure by one stop, when I go to print them at the same enlargement will they require exposures different by one stop too? It appears to be the case and would make sense but I was wondering if this was something known.

This came up when I decided I wanted to make some quick small prints so that I could stick them on my walls and live with them for a while before I decide what I want to print larger if at all. What I do is make the first print from a roll with test strips and then for the rest, judge from the contact sheet how different the other frames' exposures are and then do their prints without test strips, just adjusting the exposure by the assumed stops difference. It doesn't always work perfectly (I could be judging the exposure difference incorrectly) but it seems to give me reasonable results.
As they say on the APUG....there's one way to find out! :smile:
When you do, please report your results, I think it would be interesting.
About the only thing I've ever done is to say of a shot on a contact sheet "that exposure seems to be correct for those certain shots, I'll start there."
 

ic-racer

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
16,567
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Seems like you are asking if one stop change in scene illumination is the same as one stop illumination change on the negative of the scene. This would only be true if you processed you film to a gamma of 1.0. Most users of rollfilm process the film to a gamma less than that, around 0.8 to 0.6.
 

Kino

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
7,777
Location
Orange, Virginia
Format
Multi Format
Seems like you are asking if one stop change in scene illumination is the same as one stop illumination change on the negative of the scene. This would only be true if you processed you film to a gamma of 1.0. Most users of rollfilm process the film to a gamma less than that, around 0.8 to 0.6.

Also, unless your prints are developed exactly the same way, the gamma of the print will vary and throw it off as well...
 

Mr Bill

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
1,483
Format
Multi Format
Two stops at the camera would be one stop at the enlarger.

At least if you find that statement true, you have developed your film to an 0.5 contrast which many people like...

I think this is the most direct explanation, if explanation is what you're looking for.

But since I see that you (the OP) are fairly new to photography, some further explanation is in order. "Contrast" in film or paper essentially describes how fast it responds to changes in light level. A one-stop change doubles (or halves) the light coming through the lens. When this happens, a low-contrast film will have a small change, whereas a high-contrast film will have a large change. If you take these two pieces of film, and measure the difference in how much light they block, you'll probably find that the high-contrast film has much greater, more than double the "light blocking" power, whereas the low-contrast film has much less than double the blocking power.

So the contrast of the film mainly determines how much more light it will block as a result of a one f-stop exposure increase. A number of people mentioned something called "gamma," this is roughly the same thing as film contrast.

The way film contrast is measured is like so: you make a series of exposures on a f-stop based scale - each step essentially doubles (or some other factor) the exposure. (Actually, a "log" scale is used, where each change of 0.30 represents either a doubling or halving of exposure, depending on which direction you are going.) Then you use an instrument called a densitometer (it measures optical density) to read the film. Density is also on a log scale, so it correlates to the original log exposure scale. (For example, a density value = 0 means that 100% of the light passes through; film with density = 0.30 lets 50% of the light through, and density = 0.60 only lets 25% of the light through, etc.

Anyway, we can draw a graph of the film's exposure, using a log scale, vs the film's light-blocking power, also on a log scale (aka "density"). (This is called the "characteristic curve" and is commonly shown on film data sheets. It also varies with development time, etc.). If the resulting curve has a slope = 1 (same as gamma = 1), then doubling of the film exposure WOULD result in the film blocking half of the light. But in normal photography, the film almost always has a lower slope, typically about 0.5 to 0.6.

So in the real world, if you increase film exposure by one f-stop, the typical result is that the light-blocking power of the film increases less, perhaps only by about 2/3 f-stop. This is why people are telling you that the change in film exposure does not correlate exactly to the change in printing exposure.

But WAIT! The plot thickens! The photo papers that we print on typically have a much higher contrast than film. So even though the film has a reduced light-blocking effect (compared to changes in the camera exposure), when we print onto photo paper this "reduced effect" is now exaggerated by the higher-contrast paper, and the combined effect is closer to what you expected to see.

Anyway, the process is fairly complicated, and the result won't always be exactly what you expect. Although it IS very predictable if you have all the details right.
 

Bill Burk

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
9,330
Format
4x5 Format
It’s not that complicated.

(number of stops at the camera) (times) (your contrast) = (the number of stops at the enlarger)
 

Bill Burk

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
9,330
Format
4x5 Format
While I am trying to demonstrate that I think it’s simple, I do not mean to contradict anybody who offers further explanation. For example Mr Bill tells an important story worth reading and thinking about. Maybe he’s right and it is complicated.

For example my little parenthetical “(your contrast)”... while it’s clear to me, might be more complicated than I make it out to be.
 
OP
OP

Carriage

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
219
Location
Melbourne
Format
35mm
That makes sense. I suppose that if I'm consistent in developing and film(I.e. my contrast) I can learn what a stop at the enlarger looks like on the contact sheet anyway. It's not as if it's precise to begin with.

Thanks for the help everyone.
 

tedr1

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
940
Location
50 miles from NYC USA
Format
Multi Format
Basically, in terms of image tone, a stop on a camera lens is a lot. A stop on an enlarger lens is huge. This is because enlarging paper exaggerates contrast (this is what the gamma remarks refer to). Film is a low contrast version of the original subject brightness range, the subject brightness range is compressed. Enlarging paper puts the tonal range back where it was originally (approximately) by expanding the tonal range again. Soft papers (grades 00-2) expand it less, and hard paper (grades3-5) expand it a lot.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom