Is a Graflex 22 TLR a good choice?

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AE35

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I'm thinking of buying my first MF camera and going the TLR route. My budget is $200 or less. I considering getting a 50's Graflex 22 TLR. If you guys have anything better to recommend, I'm open to anything that applies to the above criteria.

I'm also open to MF folding cameras like the Bessa, Ikonta, etc
 
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Mr_Flibble

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The Graflex 22 is a slightly updated Ciroflex Model F. I only have experience with the Ciroflex Model D, but from reading about them I know they're all pretty solid designs with reliable shutters. Lens quality is also decent; The f/3.2 Wollensak Raptar is a Tessar design.
 

Fixcinater

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$200 should get you a nice condition Yashica or Minolta or Mamiya TLR or a nice Rolleicord, or one of the Zeiss Super Ikontas. Those would be my top picks for a first MF camera, in that order.

I'm sure the Graflex is fine but the others would likely be easier to find service and accessories for.

If you were really good at finding deals and willing to be patient, you could potentially get into one of the system cameras but then you might start wanting more lenses and add-ons.

So, I'd find something that had been serviced recently (so you know it should be reliable) and in as good of condition (WRT abuse like broken parts/edges of metal bent from drops, not so much concern about cosmetic wear from actual honest usage) as possible.
 

Mr_Flibble

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Good suggestions. Good point about accessories too.

With a $200 budget you can probably find an As-Is Rolleiflex Automat from the 1950s period as well, but you'd probably have to pay extra to get it serviced.
 

Kirks518

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For $200 or less I'd go with either the Yashica 124G, or one of the Mamiya TLR's. Advantage for the Yashica is weight and age. Advantage for the Mamiya is it's a system camera, and has a lot of nice features. I personally prefer the Mamiya.

FWIW, I'll be selling a Mamiya C3 with 135mm, waist level finder, body cap, and porrofinder within your budget. PM me if you're interested.
 

Andrew K

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I had a mint Graflex 22, and it produced great results, but I never got along ith it. I found it hard to release the shutter without camera shake at shutter speeds below 1/125th.

I've owned many different TLR's, but if I was going to spend $200 on a camera I'd buy a Mamiyaflex 220 - they are bullet proof.

You can also pick up Meopta Flexarets fully serviced for just over $120 - they also produce great results..
 

summicron1

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I'm thinking of buying my first MF camera and going the TLR route. My budget is $200 or less. I considering getting a 50's Graflex 22 TLR. If you guys have anything better to recommend, I'm open to anything that applies to the above criteria.

I'm also open to MF folding cameras like the Bessa, Ikonta, etc

I wouldn't pay more than $50 for a Graflex TLR -- it's really not a high end camera at all. And that is assuming the shutter is in good working order and the lens clear and clean.

Having said that, you could do far worse -- a cheap TLR like that would be a great place to start, would give you fine results, would get you into the hobby and shooting film.

Higher end cameras like rolleis or even yashicas probably need to be serviced to be reliable. Folks who say service and accessories are hard to find for a Graflex are worrying about things you won't need -- the Graflex/Ciroflex is a pretty simple camera, if you find one working, it will very likely keep working for as long as you want to shoot it.

Accessories? There are few you need. A good strap, a case to carry it and some film around. That's it.

Go buy one, go shoot pictures.
 
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michr

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I have one that I've used off and on for more than five years. I think I paid $100 for it, and in retrospect, that was too much. It still works fine, the images are ok, but not as sharp as the Japanese TLRs that came later. The Graflex 22 is the camera I usually recommend to people as a starter TLR. Don't overpay, find one that is 100% working at $50 and see if a TLR is right for you. The nice thing about the Graflex TLRs is that they're not sought after like a Yashicamat or a Ricohflex, so the prices aren't inflated beyond what the camera can do for you.

If you want to spend $200, I highly recommend the Mamiya C series interchangeable lens TLRs. If you want wide-angle or telephoto, or basically anything but 75 to 85mm lenses on a 6x6 TLR, at your budget, they're the only option.
 

jeffreythree

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I have a Ciroflex E from right around the name change over time since it has an 85mm Graptar lens and Graphex shutter. It takes some pretty good pictures for only being the 3 element lens model. I bought it to see if I liked TLR ergonomics, which I discovered I do not. Sellers tend to charge double for the Graflex name on the name plate over the Ciroflex model even though there are a lot more of them.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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I have one, and it works, very reasonably well. The reasons I don't shoot much with it are that A: the separate film advance and shutter cocking, B: the shutter release (as someone else mentioned, it is hard to shoot it at slow shutter speeds if not on a tripod), and C: it's still a red window film advance, which means for me that I always end up boogering up the frame spacing because I over-wind one frame and then try to compensate on the rest so I don't get half a photo on the last frame, or overlap two frames.

If you have patience with the above issues, it will be a great little camera - I do very much like the look from the lens it has. Also agreed that you should not pay more than $50 for it. I think I got mine in near-mint condition for around $35-40.
 

Sirius Glass

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If I went the Mamiya route, which model would give me the best bang for buck?

Yes, it has interchangeable lenses and you could pick up a Mamiya C330 for under $200US.
 
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I love TLRs and collected them for a time. If my memory serves the Graflex had a bit of reliability issues that had me decide not to add any to my collection. In the end few surpass the Rolleflex and Rolleicords for performance, reliability, fixability and longevity. If you can find a decent Rolleicord (which can be found for $50-150) go that route and have a good CLA done. You're set for a long time then with a legendary performer. Personally I'd prefer a beaten up but fixed up Rolleicord or Rolleiflex over a newer Yashicamat or Minolta Autocord any day.
 

Kirks518

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If I went the Mamiya route, which model would give me the best bang for buck?

I have and have had the C330, C220, and C3. The C330 is my go to camera at the moment. You should be able to get one (body only) for about $200, sometimes less if you're patient. Add in a lens, and you'll be another $100 in.

The C220 is more reasonable, as it isn't as feature-rich as the C330. You should be able to get one with lens for <$200 in very good condition.

The C3/C2 are older, and not as expensive. Easily grab a body and lens for <$150.

On any of them, if you're getting a body and lens together, the condition of the lens is going to matter. It seems there are tons of the Mamiya TLR lenses with separation between the elements, and to get a clean one can raise the price significantly. Ignore the 'Blue Dot' lenses, unless it's a great deal. Any improvement with the blue dot (of which many argue there is little to no difference), isn't (IMO) worth the premium they seem to get. I have both blue dot and non blue dot 80mm's, and I see no difference.

I have lenses with and without the separation, and other then some loss of contrast, I don't have a problem using them. Some are prett ratty looking, but work just fine. Hey, I'm cheap, what can I say.

As for which one, here's my comparison of the 3 listed, which may or may not help you decide. If it was me though, I'd go with a C330.

The C330 is the newest (barring the C330F and C330S) of the bunch (1969-1974), with the C220 about the same vintage (1968-somewhere about 1974). The C3 was from '62-'65, and the C33 from '65-'69.

The C330 has auto cocking of the shutter when you advance the film. That is a huge plus, as it's one less step to deal with.
Both the C3 and C220 are two-step; wind film, cock shutter.

The C330 has 2 shutter releases, one on the side of the bellows carraige, and one on the front bottom right of the body. Makes a difference when the bellows is extended.

The C330 has a shutter lock. Accidental tripping of the shutter can occur with the 2 shutter releases when in the bag or just during handling.

The C330 and C220 have a two-step process to release the lens. The C3 is a 3 step.

The C330 has interchangeable focusing screens. The other two do not.

The C220 does not have foam for the focusing screen, it has shims. The C330 has foam that almost always by now is deteriorated and needs replacing. It's easy and cheap to do, but advantage goes to the C220 there. I did have to re-calibrate the focus on my C220, and used paper shims to do it. Seems to have worked fine.

The C330 has a better reminder system as to what film is loaded. I always forget what's in there after a day or two.

The C220 has a crappy single/multi exposure knob. On my example, it was so 'loose' it had to be taped in the 'single' mode to prevent unwanted multiple exposures. The C330 has a sturdier 'knob', and stays put.

The C330 has a removable back, which would allow you to shoot sheet film, but other then a few APUG'ers, I doubt that's really important anymore.

Probably the biggest difference with the C330 is the parallax compensation indicator. It's a bar that moves down from the top in the viewfinder to let you know where the new top of the image will be based on the lens you're using, and the distance to your subject. This is adjusted by a dial on the side that you select the lens you are using, and it takes care of the rest.
On the others, the ground glass has 2 lines. What you have to do is focus, then look at the side of the body, follow a line for your mounted lens, and where that line hits the main body, it will tell you approximately what line in the VF will be the top of the image. In other words, it's more then just a guesstimation, but not much better. You also have to do essentially the same thing for the exposure bellows compensation, whereas on the C330, it's in the VF and the parallax compensation flag is also the guide for the exp comp. Much easier, even though I'm making it sound more difficult.

I also noticed that on the C3, film winding is more than one 360° crank, and then you have to back up to fold over the crank to fit back in it's nest. The C220/C330 are both 360°, and you're there.

Those are the differences that I noticed, that I felt were significant to me. Some of them my not be significant to you or others though.


One other thing you'll hear about the Mamiya system is the weight. Yes, it is heavier then the Yashica/Minolta/Rollei's, but it really isn't that heavy. I like the weight of the cameras, as I feel it makes them more stable hand-held. I also like the beefiness of them. I (you) can easily shoot at 1/30, and I've had 50/50 success at 1/15 on the Mamiya. On my Yashica, I found 1/30 was doable, but not always successful.

The worst part about the Mamiya system is finding a good bag for them. They are fairly large, (about 5"x5"x7" (approx)), and finding a good bag has been my challenge since using the system. The plus side is the lenses are small, and don't take up much room in the bag.


I'm sure there are other things, pluses and minuses, with each one, and I hope someone else will chime in with their favorite and least favorite differences. But, if you can swing it, I'd go for the C330 with the 80mm 2.8, and maybe grab some other lenses when you can.
 

outwest

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I have to put in a plug for a late Ikoflex if you aren't going Rolleicord or Rolleiflex. The only Yashica I ever had that didn't break was an early Yashica Mat with the good Yashinon lens.
 

MattKing

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The C330 is compatible with the C330/RB67 left hand trigger grip. The C220 doesn't have the lower shutter release, so the trigger on the grip won't work with it.

That grip is really useful.

The accessory prism finder is good too - works with both.

My camera repair technician would much rather see a blue dot lens than the older chrome lenses.
 

Andrew K

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If you are happy to consider a folding 120 camera there are a few I use and would recomment.

Kodak 66 Model 3. This is a English Kodak - you can pick one up for around $25 on ebay plus postage. This is a real sleeper and a very under=rated camera.
The specs may be basic, but it produces great photos - easily as good as a Yashica TLR

Zeiss Nettar. Any model with a f3.5 or f4.5 lens is fine - with or without auto stop on the film wind. People say the Novar lenses are not sharp, but if you stop them down to f8 I've blown up prints to 16x20 without a problem.

Agfa Isolette. Another camera that is often under-rated, but if you get one with a f3.5 lens and a 1sec to 1/200 shutter then again you should be making 16x20 prints with ease...

If you have any questions PM me - I love using old folders..
 

johnnyh

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(Dang ! I ought to be reducing my number of cameras, and this has got my Gear Acquisition Syndrome stirring again :wink: .)
If you are happy to consider a folding 120 camera there are a few I use and would recomment.

Kodak 66 Model 3. This is a English Kodak - you can pick one up for around $25 on ebay plus postage. This is a real sleeper and a very under=rated camera.
The specs may be basic, but it produces great photos - easily as good as a Yashica TLR

Zeiss Nettar. Any model with a f3.5 or f4.5 lens is fine - with or without auto stop on the film wind. People say the Novar lenses are not sharp, but if you stop them down to f8 I've blown up prints to 16x20 without a problem.

Agfa Isolette. Another camera that is often under-rated, but if you get one with a f3.5 lens and a 1sec to 1/200 shutter then again you should be making 16x20 prints with ease...

If you have any questions PM me - I love using old folders..
+1 . Folders like these are great for pocketability, I think of them as complementary to a TLR to suit different circumstances and shooting requirements. I've been well pleased with results from many triplets of that class; Novar, Kodak Anaston (in my case the 105mm version for 6x9 rather than the 6x6 of the Kodak 66) as well as brands other than those mentioned above (Voigtlander, Ensign, Kershaw ...).

Additional: http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00Al4K
 
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jeffreythree

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I will give a thumbs up for trying a folder. I use my Agfa Isolette a lot more more than the TLRs, and it is the low end one with the Agnar lens and Vario shutter.
 
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