Is 220 film never coming back?

tokam · Jan 11, 2023

mshchem said:
What would really be cool, DAYLIGHT RELOADS FOR 35mm CASSETTES! Back in the day you could buy paper wrapped 35mm reloads, film on a center spool without the outer metal cassette. You opened up your cassette, removed the empty spool, slipped in the reload, with it's paper tongue hanging out, after buttoning up the cassette you pulled the paper tongue and out popped the film leader.

We could sell it as a lower carbon footprint version, use 100% post-consumer recycled plastic and paper.

EcoChrome!

I bought a few of these back around 1974 while in high school in NZ. Can't remember what film it was, probably AGFA or Ilford. The local pharmacy was a great source of photo gear - film, developers and a small range of Paterson darkroom gear. Bought my System 4 developing tank there. Can't remember the economics of it, maybe 50% cheaper than individual rolls of film.

Buying several of these reloads could be a good way to gain experience with films you haven't yet tried before committing to buying a bulk roll. Of course you would need to have some reloadable cassettes on hand unless you are prepared to unroll the reload and tape it to the film stub from a used crimped cassette.

Donald Qualls · Jan 11, 2023

tokam said:
Of course you would need to have some reloadable cassettes on hand

I recall all or almost all commercial cassettes in the 1970s still being reusable -- you'd pop the top in the darkroom by smacking the long end of the spool on the counter, which didn't bend the cap (usually), leaving the empty cassette ready to reload. Of course, you'd only have empty shells if you developed your own film, or if it occurred to you to ask the local photo lab for a few.

tokam · Jan 11, 2023

Aside from about 40 plastic reloadable cassettes which I bought in the early '90s I have probably a couple of dozen metal cassettes from the '80's which I still use. Just wipe a folded Post-it-note between the film lips and you're good to go again.

I never had to bang the cassette on the counter top. I just gave the cassette a gentle squeeze and then pried off the end cap with my thumbnail.

rcphoto · Jan 11, 2023

mshchem said:
What would really be cool, DAYLIGHT RELOADS FOR 35mm CASSETTES! Back in the day you could buy paper wrapped 35mm reloads, film on a center spool without the outer metal cassette. You opened up your cassette, removed the empty spool, slipped in the reload, with it's paper tongue hanging out, after buttoning up the cassette you pulled the paper tongue and out popped the film leader.

We could sell it as a lower carbon footprint version, use 100% post-consumer recycled plastic and paper.

EcoChrome!

I heard this coming back after they get Cibachrome up and running again.

Donald Qualls · Jan 11, 2023

tokam said:
I never had to bang the cassette on the counter top. I just gave the cassette a gentle squeeze and then pried off the end cap with my thumbnail.

Banging it was how I was taught in 1969. Most of the reusable metal cassettes I have now can be opened with my nails, no squeezing etc. needed (but then, I learned from my dad how to lift the seal cap on a Mason jar with my fingernails, around 1970...). The Soviet ones come off easier than the Kalt cassettes, plus both ends come off...

Sirius Glass · Jan 11, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Banging it was how I was taught in 1969. Most of the reusable metal cassettes I have now can be opened with my nails, no squeezing etc. needed (but then, I learned from my dad how to lift the seal cap on a Mason jar with my fingernails, around 1970...). The Soviet ones come off easier than the Kalt cassettes, plus both ends come off...

I am lost here. I banged 35mm cassettes but I never heard of 220 film cassettes. Did I miss something or fall out of the wrong thread?

Donald Qualls · Jan 11, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Did I miss something or fall out of the wrong thread?

Thread drift. There was a reference to paper leader 35 mm reloads (film and spool with paper for light protection), presumably sold cheaper than loaded cassettes. I doubt they'd be cheaper today, given the cassettes are 100% machine loaded.

Kodachromeguy · Jan 11, 2023

mshchem said:
What would really be cool, DAYLIGHT RELOADS FOR 35mm CASSETTES! Back in the day you could buy paper wrapped 35mm reloads, film on a center spool without the outer metal cassette. You opened up your cassette, removed the empty spool, slipped in the reload, with it's paper tongue hanging out, after buttoning up the cassette you pulled the paper tongue and out popped the film leader.

We could sell it as a lower carbon footprint version, use 100% post-consumer recycled plastic and paper.

EcoChrome!

You can still buy Svema FN64 film made in the Soviet Union that is wrapped in black paper.

USSR 1990-th years Svema Film 35 mm 19 Din 64 ASA. B/W negative. Set 100 piece | eBay

USSR 1990-th years Svema Film 35 mm 19 Din 64 ASA. B/W negative. Set 100 piece. (see pictures).

www.ebay.com

It is 30 years old, but being B&W and only EI=64, it may be quite usable.

Donald Qualls · Jan 11, 2023

Kodachromeguy said:
Svema FN64 film made in the Soviet Union that is wrapped in black paper.

Does that come with the spool, or is it just the film itself?

eli griggs · Jan 11, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Banging it was how I was taught in 1969. Most of the reusable metal cassettes I have now can be opened with my nails, no squeezing etc. needed (but then, I learned from my dad how to lift the seal cap on a Mason jar with my fingernails, around 1970...). The Soviet ones come off easier than the Kalt cassettes, plus both ends come off...

I found Ilford cassettes to be the cleanest opening and reloadable of the several films I bought preloaded, at times when my bulk loading materials were no available and reused them happily.

I ever only had debris likely scratch a few rolls, but Edwal Scratch hiding liquid saw those right when it came down to printing.

The old Soviet or Russian caseless film sounds interesting and I'm wondering if it was available in 220, 120 70mm rolls and was it a good product, compared to Western mainstream films?

Cheers

Donald Qualls · Jan 11, 2023

eli griggs said:
The old Soviet or Russian caseless film sounds interesting and I'm wondering if it was available in 220, 120 70mm rolls and was it a good product, compared to Western mainstream films?

There wouldn't be much sense in packaging 120/220/127 like those caseless 135 rolls, since they're normally packaged just rolled on a spool. For 70 mm, I don't know that there was ever pre-loaded cassette packaging; 70 mm for still cameras was only ever a niche product even among the niche products of high volume professional photography. It's hung on longer than 220 because it was always bulk loaded, the cassettes and loaders are durable, and the film is still produced for (also extremely niche) cine applications so machines to perf and roll it exist -- all that's special in still versions is packaging in relatively short bulk rolls (50-100 feet), and in emulsions that aren't usually used in huge movie cameras (like HP5+).

Kodachromeguy · Jan 11, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Does that come with the spool, or is it just the film itself?

Unknown, the photos just show a black paper-wrapped cylinder. I have read that the B&W Soviet film was pretty good in its day. As for now, the storage conditions over the decades would be the critical factor on whether you can use this film.

eli griggs · Jan 11, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
There wouldn't be much sense in packaging 120/220/127 like those caseless 135 rolls, since they're normally packaged just rolled on a spool. For 70 mm, I don't know that there was ever pre-loaded cassette packaging; 70 mm for still cameras was only ever a niche product even among the niche products of high volume professional photography. It's hung on longer than 220 because it was always bulk loaded, the cassettes and loaders are durable, and the film is still produced for (also extremely niche) cine applications so machines to perf and roll it exist -- all that's special in still versions is packaging in relatively short bulk rolls (50-100 feet), and in emulsions that aren't usually used in huge movie cameras (like HP5+).

I made this confusing and I apologize.

I was no looking to see if the 35mm rolls under conversation had larger siblings, also wrapped similarly, but wondered if that film was ever available in the larger formats, like Plus-X was here in the U.S..

Is that film still produced and are there quality Russian or FSU films available now?

Cheers, ya'll!

Donald Qualls · Jan 12, 2023

Ah. @eli griggs I'm not fully in the know about Soviet film production, but I suspect the Svema 35 mm films were repurposed cine stocks (the Soviet Union had a flourishing, state-supported film making industry, and consumer photography rode its coattails) and were never cut in wider widths (though they were available in single perf 16 mm). There apparently were sources of 120 at some point (lots of Iskra and Moskva 2,3,4,5 cameras made and "sold" and it seems unlikely they were importing Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji for all the years between the end of WWII and the fall of the Soviet Union -- maybe Foma or Forte?), but I don't know when they stopped production.

As far as I know, all the Soviet-era film factories in Russia and Ukraine have closed. Lomography seems to be the only Russian source of fresh film, and theirs is 100% rebranded.

Kodachromeguy said:
Unknown, the photos just show a black paper-wrapped cylinder.

I was hoping someone had experience with the "reload" style Soviet films. I vaguely recall someone writing that the film is actually loose inside the wrapper, i.e. no spool, no paper leader, and thus needs to be loaded into a cassette in total darkness, but I don't recall where or whether it was a specific film.

xya · Jan 12, 2023

I had quite some of these reloads for 16mm Kiev 30 cassettes. They are wrapped in black paper, just the film, no core or spool. But easy to load in a bag. Only once I had a similar reload for SL cassettes (35mm).

mshchem · Jan 12, 2023

Good old days

reddesert · Jan 13, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Ah. @eli griggs I'm not fully in the know about Soviet film production, but I suspect the Svema 35 mm films were repurposed cine stocks (the Soviet Union had a flourishing, state-supported film making industry, and consumer photography rode its coattails) and were never cut in wider widths (though they were available in single perf 16 mm). There apparently were sources of 120 at some point (lots of Iskra and Moskva 2,3,4,5 cameras made and "sold" and it seems unlikely they were importing Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji for all the years between the end of WWII and the fall of the Soviet Union -- maybe Foma or Forte?), but I don't know when they stopped production.

As far as I know, all the Soviet-era film factories in Russia and Ukraine have closed. Lomography seems to be the only Russian source of fresh film, and theirs is 100% rebranded.

I was hoping someone had experience with the "reload" style Soviet films. I vaguely recall someone writing that the film is actually loose inside the wrapper, i.e. no spool, no paper leader, and thus needs to be loaded into a cassette in total darkness, but I don't recall where or whether it was a specific film.

Svema made a lot of film, and yes they did sell 120 film (something had to go in those Lubitels). I have no personal experience, but if one googles "Svema 120 film," there are pictures of boxes of Svema 120, some with expiration dates in the 60s or 70s.

Here's an article by a Westerner who remembers 120 film and foil-wrapped reloads loaded in a dark closet: https://kosmofoto.com/2022/04/the-ukrainian-factor-in-my-film-photography/

eli griggs · Jan 13, 2023

reddesert said:
Svema made a lot of film, and yes they did sell 120 film (something had to go in those Lubitels). I have no personal experience, but if one googles "Svema 120 film," there are pictures of boxes of Svema 120, some with expiration dates in the 60s or 70s.

Here's an article by a Westerner who remembers 120 film and foil-wrapped reloads loaded in a dark closet: https://kosmofoto.com/2022/04/the-ukrainian-factor-in-my-film-photography/

Cheers!

MCB18 · Jan 17, 2023

Ahh, 220… I got 300 ft of Aviphot 200 in 70mm and am hand rolling it into 220 for personal use, and was intending on selling it to make back my money. After all, lots of folks seem to want it! I even when through the trouble of making labels for the film (the unexposed band, and exposed sticky tab). Unfortunately, it seems I over-estimated the market. Have sold a grand total of 3 rolls of 220, and 2 of 120 in the 8 months I’ve had the film. At least I had fun designing the stuff, so I can at least be satisfied when I open a roll?

pentaxuser · Jan 17, 2023

Die we collectively reach a conclusion on whether any 220 apart from Shanghai is coming back?

pentaxuser

redbandit · Jan 17, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Die we collectively reach a conclusion on whether any 220 apart from Shanghai is coming back?

pentaxuser

to many companys seem to get components from ilford.. thus until ilford does, no one will via relabel.

To many companies can barely make their own film, so until a central company offers 220 as a standard option, again, dont expect

Craig · Jan 17, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Die we collectively reach a conclusion on whether any 220 apart from Shanghai is coming back?

Well, for a number of technical and economic reasons it's never coming back from Ilford, Kodak or Fuji. My understanding from various things posted by Ilford nearly 20 years ago is that the machinery ( at least in the first world) simply doesn't exist to do it anymore.

Sirius Glass · Jan 17, 2023

pentaxuser said:
~~Die~~Do we collectively reach a conclusion on whether any 220 apart from Shanghai is coming back?

pentaxuser

Shanghai is about the only thing keeping the final nails being hammered into the coffin.

MCB18 · Jan 21, 2023

Would anyone on here want to buy 220 film that I make? If there is enough interest, I could open an ad in the classifieds.

Roi · Jan 21, 2023

MCB18 said:
Would anyone on here want to buy 220 film that I make? If there is enough interest, I could open an ad in the classifieds.

Yes im interested. color or bw or both?

Is 220 film never coming back?

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