Irregular wide streaks on 120 Rollei RPX 400 negatives (not light leaks)

MDR · Feb 1, 2014

That was implied in the packaging part of my post but maybe my statement wasn't clear enough If that was the case I apologize for my mistake.

mfohl · Feb 1, 2014

Now I'm stumped. The stripes move from place to place on the frame, and sometimes diverge. Don't think this can be a film problem. Could there be any light leaks in your darkroom (bathroom?) or your developing tank? It shouldn't have anything to do with your drying process because by that time all the exposure and development has been done.

Powerman · Feb 1, 2014

mfohl said:
Now I'm stumped. The stripes move from place to place on the frame, and sometimes diverge. Don't think this can be a film problem. Could there be any light leaks in your darkroom (bathroom?) or your developing tank? It shouldn't have anything to do with your drying process because by that time all the exposure and development has been done.

Yeah the exposures are pretty much spot on and correctly developed. Density looks fine also on the light table.

Not sure about light leaks. Firstly I would think that they would show up black in the negs and white on the inverted image, which is exactly the opposite in this case. I take great care to unroll and tank-load the film in a decent changing bag with dim lights in my room. The tank is also light tight I'm pretty sure of it. It's the old Jobo screw top type. I think if there were any leaks the part of the roll closer to the top would suffer more from light leaking int the canister and I don't think it would leave a pattern like this.

Man I feel like a scientist in a lab coat looking at an artifact and I haven't the foggiest what it is trying to tell me

JW PHOTO · Feb 1, 2014

Well now I'm stumped since these shots don't show a uniformed pattern. I'm not ruling out manufacture QC, but I sure seem to think it's something else now. The reason I say that is the shot of the iron structure shows a widening and then narrowing of the line. Do you squeegee or wipe your film before drying? I'd say it now looks more to be a drying problem. This is a very good puzzle!

MDR · Feb 1, 2014

Did you prewash the film?

MartinP · Feb 1, 2014

From the verbal description and the pics, it would appear to be drying problems ie. the film was pretty dry, then dripped on, then ended up unevenly dried. Is there a slight change of appearance of the emulsion side when viewed from almost parallel to the film surface (looking across the film) ??

A couple of hooks with a piece of string across, above the shower area, might be a convenient alternative to using the leaky shower-head as a film support. Alternatively, a sprung shower-rail can support both a shower-curtain and film - though push the curtain to one side and fix it there when drying film of course (stating the obvious, sorry).

Powerman · Feb 1, 2014

MDR said:
Did you prewash the film?

Nope no prewash. Here is my regimen:

1. Dim lights, put on some Barry White D) Unwind the film in a darkbag and put it into the tank.

2. Prepare all my chemicals.

3. Water 20°C, Rodinal 20ml + 480ml Water for the small tank. Agitation, movement and time as per Rollei instructions. 8 minutes, tapping to dislodge bubbles

4. Quick Stop for 1 Minute agitate and let sit for a while (Adostop, correct dilution)

5. Prior to fixing I do 2-3 quick rinses with some agitation to clear off the stop bath (container closed of course)

6. Adequate fixing time, 4-6 minutes depending on dilution (Adolux), Agitate 30 seconds then every 2 minutes for 15 seconds or so.

7. Ilford 5, 10, 20 rinse and then open tank and let water run through for another 5-10 minutes or so frequently dumping the water.

8. Final rinse / wetting with filtered water (neutral ph, low mineral content) with a few drops of Mirasol 2000 WE, take out, shake off excess water, no squeegee no fingers. Hang up in shower cabinet after I have sprayed the cabinet with hot water to get hot water vapor forming / increase humidity so that the film does not curl as much and doesn't accumulate airborne dust.

That's it, I wait til it dries overnight or so then cut and put the film strips in pergamin sleeves and folder.

Has been working fine for me so far. So this one is a bugger

Dan Daniel · Feb 1, 2014

Take a bad frame and drip some water on the emulsion. Those areas can take on a different tone than the dry areas, even after it dries out.

If I run the shower-maybe to steam the room and pull down the dust level- my showerhead will sometimes 'burp' a while later. Enough to create a stream down film? The stream would flow, maybe break apart and waver. Lay the film out in original position before cutting and see if the mark starts wide and then diverges; I doubt it would converge and form a straight stream again.

And then take one of the frames (or a strip) and re-soak it. Let it sit for a while, then hang to dry. See if the marks disappear.

Well, just trouble-shooting ideas.

And I stand by the air bubble remark on the first frame shown. Standard size, standard look, right location for a plastic reel.

Edit: oh, a 120 film drying cabinet idea: go to a digital printing outfit, a sign shop, or such place. They will use paper on rolls, 48-54 inches wide. The paper comes in cardboard boxes. 6 inches square, 50-56 inches long. Tall enough for a roll of 120. Fold the flaps on one end of the box and place it on the floor upright. Put a string or stick across the top opening (I used a take-out chopstick poked through the cardboard). 2 rolls fit easily- get more boxes if you are doing a lot, or drop the film very carefully. Hang the film inside, close the top. And wait- minimal circulation, so it takes overnight or more to dry. If the box gets grungy, go by the shop and ask for another one. I would spray water inside the box while the film was washing to take down any dust.

(I moved on to making a box from cloroplast and duct tape for 120. Cut openings for computer fans top and bottom, put a 25 watt light bulb on a dimmer inside the box, HEPA air filter material over the fan intake, a 12-9-7.5-6-4.5 volt DC adapter to power the fans.

For 35mm, I found a 7 inch collapsible air duct material that expands like a Jiffy Pop container. Pulled it up to 6 feet plus, set it in a corner, chopsticks across the top for hanging the film, cover the top, and be patient again.)

(Or get one of those chin-up type expansion bars to hang the film in the shower.)

Powerman · Feb 1, 2014

You Sir, are Film McGyver! That's something I'm going to try out in the future. Great idea

CatLABS · Feb 1, 2014

These do no look like a chemical/processing issue, but more like Xray scan lines.
At first i thought this was a scanner issue, but as you say you "scanned" them with your phone that is not a problem, and espcieally if you can see the issue with your naked eyes.
If the lines/streaks are constant through out the entire length of the film it is even less likely to be a processing issue and more likely an Xray/scan problem.

AgX · Feb 1, 2014

CatLABS said:
These do no look like a chemical/processing issue, but more like Xray scan lines.

X-rays in any case would add density, not reduce it.

AgX · Feb 1, 2014

mfohl said:
It shouldn't have anything to do with your drying process because by that time all the exposure and development has been done.

Drying conditions can have an effect on optical density. If these conditions vary localy, density differences may occur.

CatLABS · Feb 1, 2014

AgX said:
X-rays in any case would add density, not reduce it.

true - and in this case it might be that the areas with less density were between the beams.
Drying is as you mentioned a possibility as well, or areas that got wet before the introduction of the developer.

AgX · Feb 1, 2014

CatLABS said:
true - and in this case it might be that the areas with less density were between the beams.

Not the two stripes being the artefact, but the rest.
Interesting thought.

CatLABS · Feb 1, 2014

AgX said:
Not the two stripes being the artefact, but the rest.
Interesting thought.

Yes, i have seen this happen, several times, but with film that was scanned in the checked baggage, and was scanned more then once over a few stops.
However, that was some years ago, and the shape or spread of the beams might have changed since.

It is possible that this is radiation from another source (heat, light etc) that hit that area and left areas unhit as they were sheilded. But - a simple test will answer this - just shoot another, fresh/new roll and repeat everything you did with this one, and you will have an answer.

Powerman · Feb 3, 2014

Hi again ladies and gents!

I have resoaked a part of the filmstrip and either my eyes are lying or I can detect a slight fading of the bright streaks. It is still there but a lot less apparent now. I will try a few resoaks and drying cycles and see what happens. Not sure if it is just the emulsion disintegrating from resoaking? Will elaborate later once I do some more tests.

Definitely can't be the camera s another roll came out perfectly exposed and uniform. Regarding Xray I was not traveling with the film or near any other heat or radiation sources. Could be it got fried on some mode of transportation from the factory? Plus I think Xray would take on a different pattern that is more geometric. This is somewhat random and snakes around the entire roll.

This really is a strange one!

MartinP · Feb 4, 2014

If you don't think that this is a drying problem, try taking a 'pristine' dry piece of film (with images that you don't mind losing) and run warm water down a small part of the surface. Allow it to dry. You will most likely find that the re-swollen area of emulsion looks different to the part which was not re-wetted, including when it's projected in your enlarger.

Dan Daniel · Feb 5, 2014

I don't think this is a strange one at all. Stop your shower head from burping water onto your drying film- problem solved.

No tests or reports, but I could see that putting water on a section of dry (or less moist) emulsion could create stress areas along the border. The emulsion will swell in certain places, then there will be a 'ridge' or such at the edge of the wet area. Maybe the silver in the emulsion gets redistributed at this stress area and the edge effect will never disappear completely? Well, it sure makes more sense than x-ray beams doing random dance steps in the distance of film/backing paper thickness of rolled 120 film.

Thisisgregers · Mar 7, 2022

Hi Powerman and others,

I've just shot 9 rolls of Rollei RPX 400 (120mm) in Wyoming and some of the rolls showed similar issues as what you described here back in 2014. I've been obsessed in trying to pinpoint the issue and have tried a number of things, still, as I developed the rolls, some kept turning out the same prob as you have described. I'm very curious to see if you were ever able to isolate the issue?

Thanks,

Gregers

Powerman said:
Hello fellow film aficionados,

I have been "using" this forum for a long time as a source of information and learned a lot from the discussions posted. Now I finally got an account of my own as I could not find anything through searching the boards. Been developing B+W film for two years now, and I have my "regimen" and I treat it as a natural process, whereas things can turn out differently even if you follow all your steps to the detail.

That being said: I have been using Rollei RPX 400 120 for a few weeks now and shot about 5 rolls with it, some in a Mamia RZ 67 and some in a Yashica Mat 124G. All came out fine with exception of the idiot error like opening your film back unshaded in the mid day sun to remove an exposed spool....meh

Enter the weird one: Snapped some test shots in a studio with my Yashica to test if the flash sync and everything works properly.

View attachment 61620 View attachment 61621

This one film I developed has these strange wide marks along the entire film roll. They are about half a centimeder wide and sort of "snake" around. On one side it starts out as a thick wide strip and then branches off into two and they start moving around. They are not light related as they would be black on the negs.

Here are my theories:

1: Something to do with the film manufacturing process?

2: Something done differently during developing? (Can't see what I did did differently apart from accidentally rinsing the film with semi-hot water and then switched back to cold when I realized this).

3: After a final rinse with filtered water and some Tetenal Mirasol 2000 wetting agent, I hang all my film on my shower head as its the only high enough place in my bathroom to hang 135 and 120 film. It's a flat rainshower type heat so the clips fit niely around the round head. When they dry they usually have very faint water spots as the water is ultra hard in Berlin. Sometimes the shower head drips randomly, even if I showered hours earlier. This time it defo did as the lower clip was wet after a whole day drying and I had to clean the newly acquired mineral deposits from the drip water...that is when I put the film on the light table and discovered these weird bars... As I said before they start out as one, and that was the first frame that hung closest to the shower head. Could it be that there was a substantial drip, which caused the drying film to have a stream of water running alongside it that was constantly wet, resulting in an uneven drying process? This would somehow explain why the lines don't follow a particular pattern and look like a stream of water?

Sorry for this huge monster post but it baffles me and I really want to know what i going on Luckily this was a test film

Looking forward to your expertise

Irregular wide streaks on 120 Rollei RPX 400 negatives (not light leaks)

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