IR Films and Modern Cameras

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

I know that some cameras use infrared beams to count frames, but I don't know which ones do. Does my Nikon F100? Does a Nikon F5? F6? Canon EOS-3? I've heard that the EOS-1V does not, and is safe for IR films...but I haven't found anything about the previous cameras. What about some other cameras?

Basically, I want to know if I should "invest" in some HIE or EIR film. I LOVE the IR look, but I'm afraid that my camera is going to ruin the IR film, and which what HIE costs...that's just not good.

Thanks. If anyone can please get back to me as soon as possible, I will be extremely grateful.

thefizz · Aug 5, 2008

I have used HIE in my EOS 300 and just got a slight fogging along the holes of one edge of the film. This fogging did not continue into the frame so no problems really.

Peter

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

Canon uses an ir beam to help advance the film. I do not believe that Nikon does the same. I have shot countless rolls in my n90s and know it has no such ir sensor.

nighthawkjw · Aug 5, 2008

HIE? EIR??? Where are you buying these films? They were discontinued and can be bought for a fortune on ebay only. Try Rollei, Efke or Ilford for IR films.

If any camera senses the film speed, it may fog IR film. Best bet is to very old school and use a very basic manual camera - Canon A1, Pentax K1000, Nikon F2... You can get these cheap, or even for free now!

Let me know if you have any questions about IR.

~James C. Williams

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

EIR seems cheap on ebay, and I know someone that cuts down a similar film (Aerochrome, or something) and can cut it down to 35mm for me. HIE...I'm thinking of getting some rolls of off the classifieds here.

I managed to find one person saying they shoot IR with their F100, but as I have no idea who they are, I'm not very trusting of what they wrote.

Markauf · Aug 5, 2008

I've shot lots of HIE IR with the F100 without any problem.

Down to my last few rolls and feeling like Elaine in the "Sinefeld" episode of "Sponge Worthy" when I think about loading a roll to shoot!

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

Great. I'll get my 4 rolls at $18 a pop, then. :\

Why couldn't I get into photography before HIE was discontinued?

I guess I'll have to enjoy my 26 rolls of assorted ISO25 Kodachrome and Techpan I got for next to nothing on ebay.

Stephen Frizza · Aug 5, 2008

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

this is a thread on this issue which may be of help.

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

Markauf said:
I've shot lots of HIE IR with the F100 without any problem.

Down to my last few rolls and feeling like Elaine in the "Sinefeld" episode of "Sponge Worthy" when I think about loading a roll to shoot!

In feel that way about my last sheets of 12x20 ir film.

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

I know that I need to use that red focussing dot for HIE, do I also need to use it for EIR (or EIR-like film)? Why do I need to use that dot?

Thanks again everyone. So all I need to do is put some black electrical tape over the little window, and I'll be fine?

AgX · Aug 5, 2008

This quite extended site has rather at the top some links to camera related problems when using IR-film.
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/mainpage.htm

Concerning that IR-focus marking:
It depends. When using an IR-film with IR-filters one of course, if feasible, corrects for the focus difference.
When using a false-colour film, where an orange filter is quite commonly used, you, strictly speaking, focus on what should be in focus. In case this is something what you expect to have a high IR-luminance (radiation or reflection) you should correct for the IR-related focus difference.

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

The change in focus for ir is generally measured at .25% of the focal length. (just use f/11 and don't mess with the focus)

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

AutumnJazz said:
So all I need to do is put some black electrical tape over the little window, and I'll be fine?

What window? The film window in the back of the camera?

If it is that one, then don't bother. If light is getting in there then visible light will fog your film anyway, if you have no fogging then don't worry about it.

As an aside... while loading BW IR in total darkness is generally a good idea, I have never had issues with loading EIR in the shade.

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

Are you sure? I've read on the internet that somehow IR light can penetrate that. Then again, the internet isn't exactly edited by Noah Webster.

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

In the 17+ years of shooting IR I have never had a problem with the window. If, however, it makes you feel better, taping the window will not effect performance.

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

It's nice to hear someone speaking from experience instead of supersition. I come from an audiophile forum...you have no idea what crap some people spout, and actually believe. But that's a different topic.

Anyway, back on the IR topic. I have an Orange G (16) filter. Should I also get an IR and/or deep red filter? I've seen examples...and the images that said were done with a red filter looked extremely yellow, and the ones done with an orange filter looked good...but I'm not sure. There seems to be a lot of misslabeling. Can you point me to any of your examples, and which filter you used? Should I use the same filters for the color IR film?

Thanks again.

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

For Black and White IR, depending on the film, use a deep red filter. If it is HIE then start with a red (wratten #25).

Orange is nice inside with HIE and can be shot at a higher ASA like 400 because the amount of light from an incandescent source has more ir by volume if that makes sense.

For out doors, just use the red.

Don't go buying a deep red like a 720 cut off unless you have a lot of money and more HIE than you are letting on.

The yellow Wratten #8 and Wratten #14 (which really is more orange than yellow) is great for color IR.

for your question "Should I use the same filters for the color IR film?" I would say no for the first round. Again, I don't think that a deep red does a thing for EIR. EIR does have a very significant blue cast. The yellow is a minus blue and kind of balances out the film.

There is a lot of anecdotal information on IR out there. Most of it is harmless but unnecessary. HIE needs to be loaded in absolute darkness and if you take your film to a lab, make sure they know how to process IR films of both color and BW. Most labs use IR lighting to see their way around with cameras and night vision stuff, this of course can cause some issues when developing film which sees this light as opposed to visible light only.

The last thing I will mention is that keep in mind your camera meter is calibrated for visible light. That means that when you use your cameras meter it only sees visible light. It wont tell you that there is no IR in shadow, or that the foliage you are shooting will over expose your shot. This has to be either measured by something that understands IR or you have to give it a good guess.

Go have fun.

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

Only 4 rolls of HIE. It is so freaking expensive. A nice amount of Kodachrome and Tech Pan, though.

I'm a student...I don't have much money to spend on this hobby, but what I do have goes to film buying and processing. Thank god I have a mother, though, who supplies me with food and shelter. (I'm in high-school.)

I'll bracket. Do you think a stop in both directions will do much, or should I go farther?

I don't have a lot of film...but I shoot very conservativly. I'd say I shoot 38 exposures every two months.

(I'm planning on having DR5 develop the HIE, and I'm trying to find out if my local pro lab can handle the EIR-substitute. They do E-6, it's just a question of what machine they use, and how their dark room is set up.)

I don't suppose you can link me up some examples? Or...if you could mail me some, I would pay for postage both ways.

AgX · Aug 5, 2008

AutumnJazz said:
Should I use the same filters for the color IR film?

Consider how the EIR is built up or how it works. If you would use an IR filter on it, all you would get in effect be a HIE, chromogenically developed to red though...

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

I have never seen black and white film benifit from under exposure, so if you must bracket, do one on and one with a full stop over.

I would suggest simply shooting the HIE at f/11 and 1/125th of a second for the whole roll if it is in bright sun. If you use a red 25 filter. Think if it as the sunny 16 rule for HIE.

On the other hand the EIR needs exact exposure. With my Nikon n90s and a yellow or orange filter I exposed the film metering through the filter with the asa set to 320. I shot one on and one 1/3rd under.

Again YMMV.

Mail examples of what, please?

I would suggest shooting a roll of each and as you do take notes on your exposure and what time of day, what the scene was, etc. If it takes you more than a day to shoot the roll you will certianly forget what you were shooting.

cheers

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

1. Ok, One stop over.
2. I shouldn't just meter through the lens? (My favorite time to photograph is dawn and evening...and I have a tripod. I don't plan on using HIE for street photography.)
3. I'll be using Aerochrome, which is like EIR and has an ISO of 400. What should I do?
4. I just want to see examples of your IR photos, to give me an idea. I have been looking over Flickr a bit, too.
5. I will do that. I'm bad with keeping notes on subject and exposure and whatnot...so it would be a good habit to work on.

Thanks, again. I love APUG, I always get such great answers and help.

Robert Hall · Aug 5, 2008

1. 1 over for HIE. 1/3rd under for EIR.
2. You need a source if IR for using IR film. What is your source of IR light if the sun isnt up?
3. Aerochrome is EIR. Do as I mentioned earlier, 320 asa through the filter.
4. www.roberthall.com/missions.html these look just like my slides and they are all shot at 320 asa.
5. good.

6. Don't thank me until you get some decent shots with your IR film. Keep in mind it took us many many rolls to figure it out.

AutumnJazz · Aug 5, 2008

1. Roger that.
2. Well, I'm strange. I consider 10am dawn, and 6pm evening. I guess I like shooting around noon with just color. I LOVE black and white for dark, gloomy scenes.
3. Alright, I will keep that in mind.
4. Thank you!

6. I guess I'll start with my "EIR" then, and I'll be extremely conservative with my HIE. Maybe I should try working with the Efke re-coating of Maco 820c, too?

Actually, would a sunset over the water at the beach be a good subject for IR? I don't know how water would reflect the sun's IR.

Did this picture use a different filter from this one?

Robert Hall · Aug 6, 2008

Water goes quite black with IR film. Look at some images on the web near water. We found that IR can penetrate at most about 7 inches of water. It reflects none of it.

As for the Maco IR film, I rate that at 1/2 asa and use the (real) sunny 16 rule. For my LF IR shooting I usually shoot one sheet at f/64 and 30 seconds, but it doesn't take reciprocity into effect as I really don't want to spend the money to figure it out. But at 2 seconds at f/16 (same as the 30s at f/64) I get a good image with some shadow detail using a true IR filter. (You will need a real IR filter for the Maco, it is a panchromatic film with low IR sensitivity)

IR Films and Modern Cameras

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