Interview with PE's Ukrainian colleague

LeoniD · Dec 1, 2024

Hi everyone. I have contacts of Kyrylov Anatoliy Dmytrovych- former chief technologist of Svema. He helped me a lot with my graduation project, and was kind enough to agree for an interview. Actually, he offered to read a course of lectures for me, but I'm too much of "not a chemist", sadly. Anyways, talking to him is literally like reading "The Theory of the Photographic Process". He was involved mostly with motion picture color films, and developed Svema's only C41 film, DS100. Sadly, most recently he worked only with thermal paper coating, and now teaches students that, excuse me, don't give a single flying f*ck about anything he knows(I will redact this part if needed, but I just know too well how online lectures+uninterested students work).
So, please, ask anything, I'll compile everything into a list of questions for Anatoliy Dmytrovych.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 1, 2024

Moderator note: Yes, I sort of bleeped your f bomb.

mshchem · Dec 1, 2024

How cool. !!!

koraks · Dec 2, 2024

Great! Here's one that Photo Engineer never really answered:
In color processes, a citric acid stop bath is apparently never used and allegedly, it's not suitable. Why?

LeoniD · Dec 2, 2024

Andrew O'Neill said:
Moderator note: Yes, I sort of bleeped your f bomb.

Ok, sorry for adding you work

koraks said:
Great! Here's one that Photo Engineer never really answered:
In color processes, a citric acid stop bath is apparently never used and allegedly, it's not suitable. Why?

Thanks for your question, added to the list.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 2, 2024

LeoniD said:
Ok, sorry for adding you work

Thanks for your question, added to the list.

No worries!

halfaman · Dec 2, 2024

LeoniD said:
Thanks for your question, added to the list.

You can add also in the same track why a sulfuric acid stop bath is needed for ECN-2 and whether it is ok or not to use an acetic acid stop for amateur processing as still photo. Nobody has answered to that either with real facts or knowledge.

LeoniD · Dec 2, 2024

halfaman said:
You can add also in the same track why a sulfuric acid stop bath is needed for ECN-2 and whether it is ok or not to use an acetic acid stop for amateur processing as still photo. Nobody has answered to that either with real facts or knowledge.

Svema used a "cold" Agfacolor-derivative process in all color products except DS 100 until the last day. He did work in Svema's film duplication factory later on, so he's most likely familiar with all modern color processes, just not from the R&D point of view

lamerko · Dec 2, 2024

I am very interested in how much bleach can affect the archival properties of the film.
According to Kodak, the most resistant film is ECN-2, which can be processed in all popular bleaches - ferricyanide, PDTA and EDTA. Then there are C-41 films, for which ferricyanide bleach is not recommended (WHY?), but can be processed in the other two. Finally, there are E-6 - they are designed for EDTA only. To what extent would it be problematic to process E-6 in PDTA?

brbo · Dec 2, 2024

And the mother of all questions, pre-wet or not, of course!

Sirius Glass · Dec 2, 2024

Thank you for providing the technical contact.

BHuij · Dec 2, 2024

Is there any inherent disadvantage to using a traditional B&W developer as the first step in processing E-6? Assuming time/dilution/temp were "correct", would an E-6 sheet developed with HC-110 or XTOL or what have you as the 1st developer be in any way inferior to a sheet developed with actual E6 first dev?

LeoniD · Dec 4, 2024

lamerko said:
I am very interested in how much bleach can affect the archival properties of the film.
According to Kodak, the most resistant film is ECN-2, which can be processed in all popular bleaches - ferricyanide, PDTA and EDTA. Then there are C-41 films, for which ferricyanide bleach is not recommended (WHY?), but can be processed in the other two. Finally, there are E-6 - they are designed for EDTA only. To what extent would it be problematic to process E-6 in PDTA?

+, though I don't think I've ever heard of C41 films designed for ferricyanide

brbo said:
And the mother of all questions, pre-wet or not, of course!

Heh
It depends on film tho

Sirius Glass said:
Thank you for providing the technical contact.

Oh, no need to be thanking me. All I want is to save whatever I can. Maybe for a kinda selfish reason- I always loved the Svema's "watercolor" palette, and my "idiot's dream" is to shoot a feature-length film on Svema color film, but if Ferrania and ORWO struggle as much as they do, there's no way to make it come true, even with fully intact technical documentation, so I do this instead. Better than nothing I guess

BHuij said:
Is there any inherent disadvantage to using a traditional B&W developer as the first step in processing E-6? Assuming time/dilution/temp were "correct", would an E-6 sheet developed with HC-110 or XTOL or what have you as the 1st developer be in any way inferior to a sheet developed with actual E6 first dev?

+

BHuij · Dec 4, 2024

I guess to expand on that - same question for color developer. What makes E-6 color developer different from, say, ECN-2 color developer, in practical terms, since both are based on CD-3?

Romanko · Dec 4, 2024

LeoniD said:
So, please, ask anything,

You mentioned that Mr. Kyrylov reads online lectures for his students? Are these lectures a part of a college/university course or are they available for general public? In what language the course is taught?

LeoniD · Dec 4, 2024

Romanko said:
You mentioned that Mr. Kyrylov reads online lectures for his students? Are these lectures a part of a college/university course or are they available for general public? In what language the course is taught?

University course, Ukrainian. Though, original language is irrelevant these days, AI is pretty good at speech-to-speech translation.
He teaches at Shostka Institute of Sumy state University, but not anything photography-related. I didn't ask what specifically tho.

BHuij said:
I guess to expand on that - same question for color developer. What makes E-6 color developer different from, say, ECN-2 color developer, in practical terms, since both are based on CD-3?

Aight, added. My 2 cents- E6 dev is fogging, has citrazinic acid and iirc it's more active. All to ensure maximal possible dye density and proper color balance

YoIaMoNwater · Dec 6, 2024

What would be a realistic/feasible modern approach to process Kodachrome in these days (i.e. what are the banned chemicals and what can they be replaced with)?

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2024

YoIaMoNwater said:
What would be a realistic/feasible modern approach to process Kodachrome in these days (i.e. what are the banned chemicals and what can they be replaced with)?

As I understand the Kodachrome processing, it is more complex with more steps than Ektachrome or any other modern slide film processing, that is part of what led to Kodak discontinuing Kodachrome. Some here at Photrio have processed Kodachrome with black & white chemicals only, however I have no experience doing that.

Romanko · Dec 6, 2024

YoIaMoNwater said:
What would be a realistic/feasible modern approach to process Kodachrome in these days (i.e. what are the banned chemicals and what can they be replaced with)?

HC-110 dilution B for 9 minutes at 18 °C.

koraks · Dec 6, 2024

YoIaMoNwater said:
What would be a realistic/feasible modern approach to process Kodachrome in these days (i.e. what are the banned chemicals and what can they be replaced with)?

Due to the fundamental technical dissimilarities between Kodachrome and all other color films (and papers) that are still alive, this question is pretty far out there and I'm not sure it makes much sense in this context. It's a bit like asking an engineer from Volkswagen who was involved in the R&D for the 3rd generation VW Polo what it would take to rebuild a 1950s British Standard Class 9F 2-10-0 steam locomotive using parts available from MacMaster-Carr.

BHuij · Dec 6, 2024

koraks said:
Due to the fundamental technical dissimilarities between Kodachrome and all other color films (and papers) that are still alive, this question is pretty far out there and I'm not sure it makes much sense in this context. It's a bit like asking an engineer from Volkswagen who was involved in the R&D for the 3rd generation VW Polo what it would take to rebuild a 1950s British Standard Class 9F 2-10-0 steam locomotive using parts available from MacMaster-Carr.

A great analogy haha. My layman's understanding is that Kodakchrome was essentially a B&W emulsion that had dyes added to it in processing (hence needing 14 separate steps), while all modern E-6 have the dyes in the emulsion at the time of shooting.

jmrochester · Dec 6, 2024

koraks said:
Due to the fundamental technical dissimilarities between Kodachrome and all other color films (and papers) that are still alive, this question is pretty far out there and I'm not sure it makes much sense in this context. It's a bit like asking an engineer from Volkswagen who was involved in the R&D for the 3rd generation VW Polo what it would take to rebuild a 1950s British Standard Class 9F 2-10-0 steam locomotive using parts available from MacMaster-Carr.

YoIaMoNwater · Dec 7, 2024

koraks said:
Due to the fundamental technical dissimilarities between Kodachrome and all other color films (and papers) that are still alive, this question is pretty far out there and I'm not sure it makes much sense in this context. It's a bit like asking an engineer from Volkswagen who was involved in the R&D for the 3rd generation VW Polo what it would take to rebuild a 1950s British Standard Class 9F 2-10-0 steam locomotive using parts available from MacMaster-Carr.

Never hurts to ask.

koraks · Dec 7, 2024

It certainly doesn't; please go ahead.

I thought of another question: what are the effects of using a ferricyanide bleach on a modern C41 film in terms of archival stability of the negatives? In particular I'm interested in effects on e.g. potentially present radical scavengers in the emulsion, but I'm not sure whether this technology is actually used in film.

LeoniD · Dec 7, 2024

YoIaMoNwater said:
What would be a realistic/feasible modern approach to process Kodachrome in these days (i.e. what are the banned chemicals and what can they be replaced with)?

Iirc soviets did actually look into this type of film. Not much, because of WWII reparations, but I saw it in a book. I already intend to ask where the new types of dye couplers were researched for Svema, so I can ask him about more or less readily available water-soluble dye couplers, but the publicly available 1933 patent has everything listed, and all 3 couplers there produce clean colors. Then, there's the PE's patent that contains the formula of the first developer, so processing of Kodachrome is more of an engineering problem

Interview with PE's Ukrainian colleague

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