Interested in shooting Rollei Digibase CR200

Nzoomed · Jan 9, 2013

Is there anywhere where i can see some sample photos shot on this film? I want to find a good alternative since kodak has dropped Ektachrome, which i was happy with the results and felt was close enough to kodachrome for my liking, CR200 is supposed to be very close to Kodachrome, but i understand more grainy than E100G?

Agfa Presica looks a good alternative film too, and am interested to shoot that, as i understand its made by fuji?

The only offering Fuji has that im interested in shooting is Provia, looking at flickr samples, its fairly close to Kodak.

If anyone else can recommend a good film to shoot, im interested to know, or at least i would be happy to compare these films before purchasing.

Im new to shooting E6, so Kodak is all ive shot, but disneychrome doesnt interest me too much, i liked E100VS better for that use.

What are the best alternatives to E100G and E100VS?

ME Super · Jan 9, 2013

I've only shot 1 roll of CR200 and just got it back from the lab this week. It tends a bit to the yellow side, and I think the ISO 200 speed is slightly optimistic. I might shoot next time at 160 and see how it looks. It tends towards yellow but flesh tones are decent. It seems less yellow with more exposure. These scans don't quite look like the slides, and are easily correctable with auto color correct.

Provia does not tend toward yellow the way this roll of CR200 did. It seems to be the most neutral. I think the Velveeta tends towards pink. Good for nature shots but not so much for people. Velveeta 100 is less bad for people than 50.

It'll be the weekend before I dig the projector out, so I won't know until then how these look when projected. I will try to remember to let you know.

BMbikerider · Jan 10, 2013

I agree with ME Super about the warmish tones and the optimistic speed, although I will continue to use it at 200 I will extend the 1st development by 15 seconds and see what I get. The main difference with this emulsion for me, is that it has quite obvious grain. I don't find it objectionable it is just 'obvious'.

I did notice after processing 3 cassettes at different times, when viewed from the back of the film (glossy side) there seemed to be a coppery tinge to the reflection. I don't think it is my processing because rolls of Fuji Velvia 100 don't have this appearance.

AgX · Jan 10, 2013

Look for it under the Agfa designation for their late consumer version.

brianmquinn · Jan 10, 2013

Nzoomed said:
The only offering Fuji has that im interested in shooting is Provia, looking at flickr samples, its fairly close to Kodak.

Keep in mind there were several types of Provia made. They did not all look alike.
As far as I can tell there are only 2 types left

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/provia_100f_datasheet.pdf
and
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/provia_400x_datasheet.pdf

ntenny · Jan 10, 2013

I had very much the same experience with it that ME Super describes above, though I don't think I saw *quite* as much yellow skew. I eventually decided it was a little too grainy for my taste and switched to Provia 100F, which is very neutral in most situations, but I still think the Rollei film has an attractive color rendition. (I did find that shooting it at 160 reduced the graininess a little.)

Here's some stuff I shot on it: http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=67439103@N00&q=CR200.

-NT

Nzoomed · Jan 10, 2013

I too have read about the yellow tone of CR200, im also aware of its grain, it may be less grainy if shot at a slower speed do you think?
Some people suggest that it was a bad batch causing the yellowing, what was the expiry date on your film #2?
Others are waiting for new stock to be available, and the newest stock i see expires in 2015.

As far as provia goes, some people use filters when shooting it, but i feel it is a pretty neutral film. Provia 50 appears to be significantly different than provia 100.

Roger Cole · Jan 10, 2013

There is no Provia 50 that I'm aware of. There is Veliva 50 which is different from both Velvia 100 and Provia 100 and 400.

ntenny · Jan 10, 2013

Nzoomed said:
As far as provia goes, some people use filters when shooting it, but i feel it is a pretty neutral film.

I find an 81B sometimes helps keep the shadows from looking too blue (which may be a strictly accurate rendition---shadows *are* blue---but doesn't look natural in a photo), but on the whole I'd agree. On the other hand, a warming filter with CR200 can really make the yellows go wild.

Interesting idea that the yellow could be an artifact of a specific batch. It's supposed to be the same emulsion as RSX II 200, which as far as I know didn't have a reputation for being an excessively yellow-skewed film; certainly the limited amount of RSX II 50 I've shot has been much more neutral than the Rollei film (though still warmer than Provia 100F).

-NT

Bigpaul · Jan 10, 2013

I shot a couple of rolls back in the summer, and I certainly agree with the points already made: it has a definite "warm" tonality, it is very grainy (even for a 200-speed slide film), and I would shoot my next roll at 160 rather than 200, as most of my shots are slightly underexposed at 200. However, despite all of this, I do rather like it! It is certainly characterful (i.e. not neutral!), and in some ways rather "old fashioned" in the way it interprets rather than simply copies the subject (I'll leave the latter to the non-analogue guys!). I wouldn't say that it's particularly similar to Kodachrome in either tonality or grain, though. Try some......you'll either love it or hate it.......you certainly won't be ambivalent! I've attached the only scan that I've made so far, and because it was shot at dusk it doesn't really tell you very much......but I'll hopefully scan some more slides in the next few days' and post a few more.

brianmquinn · Jan 10, 2013

see post #3
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

ME Super · Jan 12, 2013

I've done an experiment with GIMP, a color temperature conversion script, and the shots I posted back in #2 above. Looks like an 82C filter might be the ticket for this film. The photos on the left are as-scanned from my Epson. The photos on the right were adjusted using a color correction script to apply a Wratten 82C filter to them.

To my eye, on my uncalibrated monitor, there's still a slight yellow cast to these post-adjustment but not objectionable. It keeps some of the warmth of the film without making everyone look like they have a severe case of jaundice. Incidentally, these were all shot with electronic flash.

LJSLATER · Jan 12, 2013

I like CR200. I hadn't heard of the batch variations, that's an interesting thought. In my experience, it is quite yellow, and quite grainy. I shoot it at ASA 200, which seems right to me (?). But then, I shoot Velvia 100 at ASA 125.

Here are some excerpts from the data sheet, which can be found at maco-photo.de:

:Aviphot Chrome 200 PE1 is a panchromatic colour reversal film for aerial photography from low to medium altitude (15,000 ft or approx. 5,000 m).

:Aviphot Chrome 200 PE1 is designed for making aerial photographs in different types of cameras.

The film is used for the interpretation of aerial photographs, in photogrammetry, for reconnaissance
and publicity.

This film is particularly suitable for mapping and oblique photography. Since the images can be
used directly in plotting equipment, copying is superfluous.

Exposure:
The sensitivity of the film is 200 ASA. It can be exposed in all classical cameras. Exposure depends
on the light reflected by the earth, the altitude and flying speed of the aircraft and processing
conditions (pushed or not).

Here's a photo I took last summer. This is a crappy scan of a homemade interneg made from the original slide, so you can make of that what you will. To my eyes, the original slide is even yellower, but not as contrasty. Since the film is roughly half the cost of the next cheapest slide film currently available anywhere, I'd suggest just trying the stuff! It comes as a 2-pack in a really cool double cassette holder.

0954NEG0016 by LJ Slater, on Flickr

Roger Cole · Jan 12, 2013

I wonder if the yellow cast is an intentional result of the intended use? As a private pilot I fly at altitudes well below 15k feet and when I shoot digital from altitude the results are always blue, albeit easily corrected later. I attribute this to extra blue and UV scattering from haze (I could post examples but I've not shot film from altitude only digital.) A yellow cast might correct for that and look more natural without filtration or later manipulation.

ME Super · Jan 12, 2013

As I promised back in post #2, I got out the projector and projected these to see how they would look. Here's one of the images. I included the screen because it was throwing off the white balance of the photo even though I'd set the camera's white balance to "Tungsten." All the detail is there in the projection, but again I shot this with the lights on so the camera wouldn't totally auto-adjust away all the yellow, so you don't see it all. I was only looking to compare color casts. I ended up adding some yellow back in because the camera still auto-adjusted too much of it out. This isn't exactly how it looked on the screen, but it's pretty close.

I like this film. I do think that the film would benefit from an 82B, possibly an 82C filter, which unfortunately takes away some of the speed gains with this film being rated 200. I also think that this film is more of a 160 speed film than a 200 speed film, so will try some shots at 160 next time to see how they look.

If you want a neutral film that you can shoot at ISO 200, I would say you have two choices:

Shoot Provia at ISO 200 and push process 1 stop.
Experiment with this film and a Wratten 82 series filter (there are four - 82, 82A, 82B, 82C, going from lightest to darkest blue). You will lose some speed with the filter, but can gain it back with push processing.

This film definitely has a 70's look to it (not necessarily a bad thing!), and if you like what you've seen in this thread, by all means use this film. If you shoot and scan, the yellow cast is easily adjusted away in your favorite software, so if you scan don't let the yellow color cast stop you!

AgX · Jan 12, 2013

Roger Cole said:
I wonder if the yellow cast is an intentional result of the intended use? As a private pilot I fly at altitudes well below 15k feet and when I shoot digital from altitude the results are always blue, albeit easily corrected later. I attribute this to extra blue and UV scattering from haze (I could post examples but I've not shot film from altitude only digital.) A yellow cast might correct for that and look more natural without filtration or later manipulation.

In aerial surveying filters are used if necessary.
Furthermore one could ask which film was first, the consumer or the aerial, or are both emulsions different?

LJSLATER · Jan 12, 2013

Roger Cole said:
I wonder if the yellow cast is an intentional result of the intended use? As a private pilot I fly at altitudes well below 15k feet and when I shoot digital from altitude the results are always blue, albeit easily corrected later. I attribute this to extra blue and UV scattering from haze (I could post examples but I've not shot film from altitude only digital.) A yellow cast might correct for that and look more natural without filtration or later manipulation.

You're correct, from my understanding. This concurs with what AgX and others have told me in other threads. I'm somewhat fascinated by this film; whose idea was it to keep making it? Do most users cross-process the stuff, so they're oblivious to the weird colors when processed normally? Why are the descriptions of the film by various vendors so hilariously misleading?

I guess it's just bizarre to me that it's still being made when other, "better" films are long gone. Not that I don't like Digibase; I love it. Just wondering out loud.

AgX · Jan 12, 2013

LJSLATER said:
whose idea was it to keep making it?

The aerial film department at Agfa...

LJSLATER · Jan 12, 2013

AgX said:
The aerial film department at Agfa...

I understand. But is there really a demand for aerial film? I'm not being confrontational, I'm genuinely curious. It seems to me that most Digibase users are so-called Lomographers that simply like "wild colors, bro".

AgX · Jan 12, 2013

As with nearly all other fields the sale in aerial film is shrinking. Nevertheless Agfa recently advocated the advantage of film vs. digital in that field.

Agfa typically do not have consumers on their mind. Those Digibase conversions are an idea of another company.

LJSLATER · Jan 13, 2013

I see, thank you. I had no idea it was actually still being used for its intended purposes.

As for my purposes, I'm grateful to have the option to shoot something other than Fuji at half the cost!

BMbikerider · Jan 14, 2013

BMbikerider said:
I agree with ME Super about the warmish tones and the optimistic speed, although I will continue to use it at 200 I will extend the 1st development by 15 seconds and see what I get. The main difference with this emulsion for me, is that it has quite obvious grain. I don't find it objectionable it is just 'obvious'.

I wonder if the grain and the warm tones are attributable to processing errors, or incorrect instructions? I processed a roll of 35mm Digibase 200 last night and it was a revelation. As I said in the clip above, I would amend the 1st development time and increase it by 15 seconds and it is like a different film. The grain has diminished and the colours are virtually neutral. The sharpness has improved too. I still get the coppery tones in the reflection when viewed from the back but they don't affect the finished image.

My processing times/dilutions are as follows:-

Pre heat for 6 mins>

1st development for 6mins 45secs (30cc developer + 120cc water)

3 mins wash (6 x 30 seconds)

2nd development for 6mins 30 seconds (30cc dev 'a' 18cc dev 'b' + 102cc water)

3 mins wash (6 x 30 seconds)

6 mins Bleach fix. (Both concentrate 'a' and 'b' mixed to make the full 1 litre concentrate and used until the kit is finished

4 mins wash (8 x 30 seconds)

Stabilising bath for 1 minute no agitation

The kit was a standard Tetenal E6 1 litre with slightly altered development times. All the baths including washing and final were at 38 degrees C

Nzoomed · Jan 16, 2013

Thanks for the sample pics ME super, it certainly does look rather yellow, but i dont know if i hate it all that much, i dont mind the vintage look too much, it does seem to have a rather 70's look about it, it has some resemblence to vintage kodachrome, except the reds are not so vibrant perhaps, i dont mind the blue tones on it though.

I would love to be able to shoot something that gave me the effect it was shot on a vintage film or early kodachrome, so this may be worth a shot.

Has anyone shot with agfa presica? It seems to be a very good alternative to E100G

Roger Cole · Jan 16, 2013

Nzoomed said:
Has anyone shot with agfa presica? It seems to be a very good alternative to E100G

I have some in the freezer that I bought when I thought it was re-packaged Sensia. But I've since read that it's essentially an amateur film version of Provia. I haven't shot it yet, but if it's Provia it's a good film but definitely not E100G.

Nzoomed · Jan 17, 2013

Roger Cole said:
I have some in the freezer that I bought when I thought it was re-packaged Sensia. But I've since read that it's essentially an amateur film version of Provia. I haven't shot it yet, but if it's Provia it's a good film but definitely not E100G.

Its made in Japan, so that could quite well be the case as Fuji is the only film manufacturer over there that im aware of.
If it is indeed the same as Provia, thats fine with me, but looking at sample photos, i felt it looked more vibrant than provia, but i could be wrong.
I dont mind provia, and is probably the closest alternative to Kodak film that i can think of, unless there is something else any better that someone can suggest, i am looking for an alternative to shoot once my stocks of E100G and E100VS run out.

Interested in shooting Rollei Digibase CR200

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