Interested in cut sheets of Kodak Endura paper?

apollodarkroom · Oct 6, 2020

I finally have a decent setup going for cutting rolls of color paper in complete darkness, up to 24” wide. I’ve tested on a couple expired rolls purchased for cheap. Planning to soon invest in a roll or two of new Endura, and possibly Fuji Deep Matte which I’m curious about but is quite a bit more expensive. Nothing against Fuji Crystal Archive sheets as I find it gives great color, just interested in expanding out and trying different things. However, I’m worried I won’t be able to use a whole roll in a reasonable timeframe.

If I were to pre-cut and package sheets for resale, would anyone be interested in purchasing? Would concerns about fogging or damage from handling make it not worth the chance to others? What kind of price point would be reasonable to include the labor of getting small quantities packaged (say 10-20 sheets of 11x14, 16x20, etc)?

Happy to share the cutting method as well if anyone is interested, it is not advanced! Thanks everyone

mshchem · Oct 6, 2020

I've got a roll easel. But no way to process continous strips. It's a beautiful easel, has all the masks etc. I want to make 5x5 snapshots from Hasselblad negatives. I will figure out something.
The short answer is no. I have too much on my plate now. Sad that KA doesn't supply cut sheets anymore

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

When I get my printing going, I'll need sheets, and having more than one paper type available seems to be the recommendation for things like contrast/saturation adjustments short of masks. There's little likelihood I'll be set up to handle rolls any time soon.

What I see as the problem is that if it takes you more than a few seconds to cut each sheet, and you pay yourself something like wages, the cost will make it non-competitive with precut Crystal Archive (which I'm certain is cut to size and packed into the black envelope by machine). Not to mention you'll need to be even more cost competitive if there's not a warranty against fogging and handling damage similar to that offered by manufacturers -- and need to price in the cost of replacements if it does. Your business can go down the drain pretty quickly if you ship a few boxes of paper that's got thumbprints in the corner of each sheet, either way.

perkeleellinen · Oct 7, 2020

If you were in the UK, or even the EU I would be in on this. There are some Fuji flavours I'd like to try but I have a small temporary darkroom and haven't got the space to cut from big rolls.

I did once have the idea of clubbing together with 2-3 APUG members in the UK to make a cooperative. We'd split the costs of the paper rolls and meet up once to work through all the cutting as a team. Any mistakes we made would be all our faults, no warranties.

koraks · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
What I see as the problem is that if it takes you more than a few seconds to cut each sheet, and you pay yourself something like wages, the cost will make it non-competitive with precut Crystal Archive (which I'm certain is cut to size and packed into the black envelope by machine).

Absolutely true, but I wouldn't compare Endura to the cut-sheet Crystal Archive which to my knowledge is all Crystal Archive type II (non-supreme), which is an exceptionally poor/compromised paper (as opposed to e.g. Crystal Archive Supreme in its many variants, which is excellent).

apollodarkroom · Oct 7, 2020

Good points. Not trying to make a business out of this as much as retrieve some of the costs of the roll while helping others. If I knew other darkroom printers locally, I would try to split rolls with them.

If someone is looking for the cheapest cut sheet paper and manufacturer warranty, they would surely stick with Fuji Crystal Archive. The incentive to buy a small pack of cut sheets from other papers would be more to “try before you buy” a full roll, so one doesn’t have to put in the heavy investment with so much uncertainty. I know I would jump on this if someone else was offering it, even with a decent markup!

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

So, @koraks you're saying that the only RA-4 paper I can buy in precut sheets is the crappy variety? And if I want good prints I must not just find a way to keep and handle roll paper, but keep multiple rolls of different kinds of paper? Is this the part where I start to regret splashing out for a 4x5 color head? Or do I have to shell out money for paper and chemicals first?

apollodarkroom · Oct 7, 2020

There are mixed opinions on the Fuji paper. Compared to my expired roll of Endura, it seems like the Fuji paper is thinner / lighter weight, and lower on contrast and saturation. The latter is ok for me as I’m going for more of a bright pastel look. However I am bothered by the cheap feel of the paper, I don’t frame a lot of prints so that’s more important to me. It also fogs cyan which I’m not thrilled about - the Endura seemed to go more warm beige. But given the cost and convenience of the Fuji it may still end up being my main paper. I very much wish there were more options available, it was a bummer for sure when I learned that my color prints would never feel as good as black and white, and that all the discontinued papers pretty much killed the ability to control saturation and contrast.

pentaxuser · Oct 7, 2020

It's a good offer, apollodarkroom. Yes you'd need some kind of lightproof bags to put the cut sheets in and factor that in to the price but I see no reason why your cut sheets should not be as undamaged as factory cut sheets. If people needed to try you out first they could order say 10 sheets only and try them before placing normal orders.

If it is done through Photrio there has to be a form of trust and gentleman's agreement terms applied between seller and buyer and there was once this kind of trust here but that does seem to have disappeared unfortunately.

I am just too far away and across an ocean as well

pentaxuser

koraks · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
So, @koraks you're saying that the only RA-4 paper I can buy in precut sheets is the crappy variety?

In my experience and opinion: yes. I never got decent blacks from CA II. Looked at prints from a pro lab (high volume) in the same paper:same problem, only worse. I've seen others describe it as "anemic", which kind of fits the bill. It's not a very apparent issue until you try to print something with a decently sized area of black or very dark hues. Then it falls apart in murky brown blotchiness. CA Supreme in the variants I tried is very good indeed, Endura is excellent.
Cutting from rolls isn't as daunting as it may sound, that's the good news. The bad news is that at least here in europe, Endura has been extremely limited in supply since March.

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

Okay, time for a new question, then.

MattKing · Oct 7, 2020

FWIW, in the last few years that Kodak did offer cut sheet RA4 paper, they contracted with a former employee who basically did the work in his garage. The volumes were so low that was sufficient to meet the needs of the market. When he decided to retire, no one was willing to take the business over.
I expect Kodak sourced the boxes and envelopes for him, as they were labelled as Kodak products.
There has been a lot of changes in the marketplace since then, so take this historical viewpoint as nothing more than a data point.

Donald Qualls · Oct 7, 2020

In other words, we're able to do color printing at all because there are still labs making wet prints (whether optically or digitally) and we can order the same products they use, or as "hobbyists" we have to take what one manufacturer chooses to supply.

Maybe I should be concentrating on tricolors and gum bichromate...

wyofilm · Oct 7, 2020

In practical terms, what kind of set up does a small, private darkroom need to cut sheets from rolls?

wyofilm · Oct 7, 2020

oops! just saw the more relevant thread.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/handling-color-paper-on-rolls-in-a-small-darkroom.178586/

MattKing · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
In other words, we're able to do color printing at all because there are still labs making wet prints (whether optically or digitally) and we can order the same products they use, or as "hobbyists" we have to take what one manufacturer chooses to supply.

Maybe I should be concentrating on tricolors and gum bichromate...

No - it means that a business that does this, should expect to do it as a "labour of love" rather than as a high profit opportunity.
The boxes are expensive to handle and ship. So the product packaged that way is either difficult/impossible to obtain, or expensive, or both.
I expect that if plummeting sales hadn't forced Kodak to leave the black and white darkroom paper market they would have had a few more economies of scale available to them and might have been able to continue offering sheets of colour paper too.

koraks · Oct 7, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
In other words, we're able to do color printing at all because there are still labs making wet prints (whether optically or digitally) and we can order the same products they use, or as "hobbyists" we have to take what one manufacturer chooses to supply.

That's correct. Once the high volume photo finishing industry moves to eg inkjet, RA4 is likely to disappear quickly. Enjoy it while it lasts.

bambiwallace · Oct 8, 2020

apollodarkroom said:
I finally have a decent setup going for cutting rolls of color paper in complete darkness, up to 24” wide. I’ve tested on a couple expired rolls purchased for cheap. Planning to soon invest in a roll or two of new Endura, and possibly Fuji Deep Matte which I’m curious about but is quite a bit more expensive. Nothing against Fuji Crystal Archive sheets as I find it gives great color, just interested in expanding out and trying different things. However, I’m worried I won’t be able to use a whole roll in a reasonable timeframe.

If I were to pre-cut and package sheets for resale, would anyone be interested in purchasing? Would concerns about fogging or damage from handling make it not worth the chance to others? What kind of price point would be reasonable to include the labor of getting small quantities packaged (say 10-20 sheets of 11x14, 16x20, etc)?

Happy to share the cutting method as well if anyone is interested, it is not advanced! Thanks everyone

i would be interested in buying cut sheets of endura but (not fuji) in 11x14 and 16x20.. i could even send you boxes and bags for the sheets. i would also be interested in your cutting method as i have about a 1000 feet of rolled paper i haven't yet attempted to cut. i have a couple of Rollma paper cutters but no instructions or a big enough light tight room to use them as they are monsters, very heavy and six feet long.

samlee_photo · May 20, 2021

@apollodarkroom

I know this is an older thread but I'd love to purchase some cut endura from you if you're still offering it.

Interested in cut sheets of Kodak Endura paper?

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Interested in cut sheets of Kodak Endura paper?

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