Interested in (but currently confused by) the Zone System. Help?

MatthewDunn said:

The rest of it could have just as easily been written in ancient Abyssinian...

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Haaa, OK. You're welcome to stop by and be a guinea pig for the class I keep promising to teach "Calling your shots".

MatthewDunn said:

My problem is that, coming from digital, I understood only the first sentence. The rest of it could have just as easily been written in ancient Abyssinian...

I am trying to figure out the best way to bridge the gap from where I am now to where the point is at which I understand your post. Maybe a trip down PCH1 is in order...

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Don't worry, I've been using film for around 35 years, knowing sorta what I was doing for maybe 15 years, and I can't completely get my head around some of the zone system stuff. The whole "place this reading on this zone" part is where they lose me. It also doesn't help that there are a LOT of people out there who don't quite "get it" but tell other people how to do it. Especially when reading about it, it's not an easy concept. I think seeing it is likely a much better way to learn it and to understand what's going on. For those of us who've never had a scientific approach to photography taught to us, it isn't easy to just pick up (I was taught by artistic types more than by technical ones). Those who do understand it might forget what it's like to be at the beginning.

Mathew I think your are getting closer to a good plan. I do though think you are over thinking the digital to analog switch.

If we use a handheld meter set at say 100 to determine our exposure setting, the setting determined from that meter readingwill work equally well for a digital camera set to 100 or an analog camera with 100 speed film.

With digital, and with analog color slide film - you "expose to the right"... With Black and White film, you "expose to the left". There is SO MUCH room at the right of black and white film, that you can catch detail in the blast of a rocket engine.

I'll show you.

Bill Burk said:

With digital, and with analog color slide film - you "expose to the right"... With Black and White film, you "expose to the left".

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Umm, well those paths are viable in certain situations, with certain subject matter, but exposing "to the right" is a bit of a misnomer IMO.

With slide film the intent is to go directly to a final ready to view/project image. You're not really exposing to the right for slides, as in moving exposure "right", you are just using a tone at that end of the scale to peg exposure where you want it.

markbarendt said:

Mathew I think your are getting closer to a good plan. I do though think you are over thinking the digital to analog switch.

If we use a handheld meter set at say 100 to determine our exposure setting, the setting determined from that meter readingwill work equally well for a digital camera set to 100 or an analog camera with 100 speed film.

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First off, thanks to everyone who has responded in this thread and in PMs. I found a thread a couple of days ago complaining about the "tone" of these forums, which I found funny because, in comparison to other forums in which I participate, this is by far the most civil, the most helpful, etc. And I am definitely overthinking this...its what I do.



But seriously, the difference in digital, it strikes me, is that if I set my 5dii to ISO 100, I know that is correct. I don't have to worry about figuring out whether a 5dii is really at ISO when I set it at ISO 100. Perhaps this thread is mis-titled, because I think I get the basic tenets of the ZS. It's more how I get to a place where I can use it. In other words, I think it's the generation of personal EI without access to a sensitrometer that has me confused. And that is where things seem different than digital. I am shooting FP4+, but is it really ISO 125 and how do I methodically go about figuring that out?

I can just start using the ZS and determine where to "place" Zone III and then after development at N determine whether or not there is sufficient detail in Zone III to be called Zone III. But that does not seem to be the way that most people go about this. Most seem to figure out your personal EI first, then figure out N, etc.

See what I am getting at?

Fp4 really is 125 ISO.

Your personal EI factors in "you".

Your preferences, your eye, your developing technique, your metering techniques, your normal subject matter.

You personal EI should simply be whatever gets you the print you want in the easiest way.

You might try this for a start.

markbarendt said:

I'd suggest shooting a single roll of a single subject with a mid-tone reference (a face or gray card or...) under unchanging light starting at maybe 4 stops under and bumping up in 1-stop increments to 5 stops over, 10 shots total. Develop normally then print "to the mid tone" so that the mid tone matches in all ten prints.

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markbarendt said:

Umm, well those paths are viable in certain situations, with certain subject matter, but exposing "to the right" is a bit of a misnomer IMO.

With slide film the intent is to go directly to a final ready to view/project image. You're not really exposing to the right for slides, as in moving exposure "right", you are just using a tone at that end of the scale to peg exposure where you want it.

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That's more correct, nothing really translates that well...

markbarendt said:

Fp4 really is 125 ISO.

Your personal EI factors in "you".

Your preferences, your eye, your developing technique, your metering techniques, your normal subject matter.

You personal EI should simply be whatever gets you the print you want in the easiest way.

You might try this for a start.

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I see what you did there...

MatthewDunn said:

But seriously, the difference in digital, it strikes me, is that if I set my 5dii to ISO 100, I know that is correct. I don't have to worry about figuring out whether a 5dii is really at ISO when I set it at ISO 100. Perhaps this thread is mis-titled, because I think I get the basic tenets of the ZS. It's more how I get to a place where I can use it. In other words, I think it's the generation of personal EI without access to a sensitrometer that has me confused. And that is where things seem different than digital. I am shooting FP4+, but is it really ISO 125 and how do I methodically go about figuring that out?

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Well, that's both true and not true. With digital (and I could be wrong; I lurk at some digital oriented sites though), it's like you've committed to a particular film when you bought that model with that sensor. Yes, anything you do with that camera will be consistent to itself. But a 5dii at iso100 might not be exactly the same as the equivalent model from a different company. That's all it is with film - you're changing the sensor each time you choose a different film. While there might be smaller differences between the various Canon, Nikon, and Pentax models as compared to differences between Acros, FP4, and TMax100, there are still differences. And those differences at least partly come down to how you use them, develop them, and print them. The variables that exist can have a more visible effect with film.
And don't forget that many differences seen by the photographers (both film and digital) are NOT seen by the average person looking at the same images.

winger said:

Well, that's both true and not true. With digital (and I could be wrong; I lurk at some digital oriented sites though), it's like you've committed to a particular film when you bought that model with that sensor. Yes, anything you do with that camera will be consistent to itself. But a 5dii at iso100 might not be exactly the same as the equivalent model from a different company. That's all it is with film - you're changing the sensor each time you choose a different film. While there might be smaller differences between the various Canon, Nikon, and Pentax models as compared to differences between Acros, FP4, and TMax100, there are still differences. And those differences at least partly come down to how you use them, develop them, and print them. The variables that exist can have a more visible effect with film.
And don't forget that many differences seen by the photographers (both film and digital) are NOT seen by the average person looking at the same images.

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All fair points and well taken.

MatthewDunn said:

I see what you did there...

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I figured you would.

The reason I suggested it is that, that test/that idea is essentially the root of all rating systems/standards.

Zone system users often shoot at 1/2 box speed, IMO that is mostly a style bias, detail in the deep shadows is really important to people who enjoy the "west coast style". Absolutely nothing wrong with that, the ISO is still the same, the EI is simply adjusted to allow easier printing of their style.

Personally, I don't care as much about the deep shadows, I care more about shutter speed to control motion blur, my subject matter/style/sensibility are different from their's, so my EI is different.

You have to test, formally or informally, to find what EI works for you.