Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger

nze · Oct 19, 2005

Hi All

I already test this paper for palladium and carbon printing. A year ago I ask Guy Gerard the owner of Bergger if it was possible to get some unsensetized paper and he sent me some sample.

for plartinum palladium, I get good direct result with the semi matt but result weren't directly good with the glossy surface. I don't use the Craig's method but something similar. For my plainum print onf these paper I use to double coat with the same quantity of solution as on classic platinum paper. I also add Tween (2 drops for a 16 drops mix). For both paper I get even better result when I decide to wash ( 4 changing water baths)them and give them an acid bath before coating. SO Craig with my method working with unsensitized paper or nt lead to the same washing step.

Now I moslty use semi matt paper which give the better reult for me , not to shiny but super sharpess. I use it for my underwood photographic work where detail is often important and lost by the use of aquarelle paper. My favorite is an old ilford paper called "Ilfomar". I sent some sample of it to Sandy King( I don't forget your print and will send it next week) and Kevin Sullivan. This paper after fixing and washing give me great result.

For Carbon printing the bergger paper work fine without any manipulation .

CraigK · Oct 19, 2005

Nze, you bring up an interesting point. All the paper I have ever used has been fixed, washed, cleared and dried before coating. There may indeed be a difference between paper that has been washed and dried before coating and paper that has not.

Obviously the fixer removes the unwanted silver but what else is lost (gained?) in the various steps required to de-sensitize and prepare the paper for coating.

I guess we will find out if/when we test unsensitized papers.

As an aside, what kind of problems are you having with the glossy paper? It is somewhat more difficult to coat than semi matt but I have managed to get excellent prints on a variety of glossy papers. Are you getting streaking? un-even coating?

nze · Oct 19, 2005

Hello Craig and all

Craig , I use different glossy paper and I get a problem with This unsensitized Bergger paper. In fact I just have a problem of density, even with a triple coating the print look high key.

I also have this problem with home made baryted and gelatine paper, just unsensitized layers apply on Arches platine paper. And t get good result with this home made paper I have too give a longer washing after the hardening step.

I also use this Bergger paper to make some Salted silver paper and it works great. But with the ferric process I also test ; cyanotype, argyrotype, the result wasnt good ( to low density even with longer printing time.)

Photo Engineer · Oct 19, 2005

Baryta paper alone is baryta with gel and other things mixed with it.

It may have a gel overcoat.

Baryta paper that has had silver halide coated on it has at least one thick gelatin layer, perhaps two or three along with some chemistry such as surfactants and matting agents. Some of the chemistry may wash out when you fix out the silver halide and other chemistry may not.

This is a different set of papers in spite of having similar names and appearance.

PE

dancqu · Oct 19, 2005

Ole said:
The emulsion is more soaked into
the paper than on baryta papers.

Likely it is little or not at all sized. A paper may be
sized but contain no baryta. But if a paper contains baryta
it is also sized because to baryta a paper requires a
sizing medium; gelatin.

There are very white papers which are sized but contain
no baryta. My question remains, why the insistence on baryta?
I'm beginning to think no one knows. I mean, who has ever
heard of a sized paper other than a baryta paper? Dan

magic823 · Oct 19, 2005

Interested.

Jorge · Oct 19, 2005

why the insistence on baryta?

There are many reasons why a baryta paper might be desirable. Dry down, ease of coating, smooth tonality, a glossy finish (or at least glossier than we can get with watercolor papers). My main interest is in seeing the dry down with this paper. There are times when a pt/pd print is wet and it is a thing of beauty, but then dry down takes it's toll and ends up looking like crap. IOW this is just us looking for the holy grail of pt/pd printing, which is a paper that will look the same wet and dry...

CraigK · Oct 19, 2005

I would second what Jorge just wrote. I came up with a way of coating baryta paper after having one too many prints that looked gorgeous in the water dry down to a dull thud on the drying rack.

Not only can you get a glossy or semi gloss or matt surface (depending on paper surface choice) but you also get incredible detail, equal to that of any silver print.

Other benefits include:

Being able to use much softer (lower contrast) negs to make prints since, for some reason, I am able to add a whole lot more chlorate (restrainer) to the mix without any of the problems (mottling etc.) it can cause with cotton papers. I really strive to get a neg with a high CI for cotton papers so that I use as little chlorate as possible...usually 1 drop to 20 since any more causes unwanted roughness to the tones. With bayrta however I have mixed up as much as 1:1 with no ill effects in the image. I regularly print Polaroid type 55 negs, which can be rather soft, this way.

Little to no solarization in the shadows. You really have to bake the heck out of a print to get the shadows to solarize on baryta paper (double coated). Many of my prints are 100% palladium and I rarely get solarization problems. If I do, a drop or two of platinum takes care of them.

Arguably a longer lived print. Since the pt/pd image is suspended in the gelatin layer above the baryty coating, it is, at least in theory, better protected than an image which is simply sitting in/on cotton fibres, more or less naked to the world. The paper support is usually thicker as well which may add to the long term protection of the print.

There are of course draw backs to coating on bayta...it is not cheap (you need to use twice as much solution and the coating failure rate is somewhat higher especially as you learn the method), it can be finicky at times and there are unknowns (the effect of any residual fixer or other chems in the paper etc....) but when it is all said and done, I think that it is a great way to make prints with a unique look.

To me, traditional cotton paper platinum prints are like the music from a classical guitar...subtle nuance and gentle tones. Silver prints are more like what comes out of a strat or less paul; tremedous bass and screaming treble. A pt/pd print made on baryta paper is still like a classical guitar; but it is as if the guitar were plugged into a Marshall stack.

nze · Oct 20, 2005

It also keep more detail of the negative. I use this method to print underwood landscapes . When I compare the details in both prints (on cot320 and on baryta paper) the baryta paper keep more fine details.

CraigK · Oct 20, 2005

Yes, a print on Baryta will show much more detail than the same print on even the smoothest cotton paper. Another difference is in the d-max. Bayta coated prints have much, much deeper blacks (dark browns?).

I should add here as well that different papers give slightly different image tones. Pt/pd images on some papers are slighly more red, on others a bit more yellow. I really like cyanotypes on baryta. The blue is very intense and the detail, incredible.

nze · Oct 20, 2005

That's true Craig,

Cyanotype on baryta are really intense. I did some too and was surprise by the Dmax of the first I did.

Loris Medici · Oct 28, 2005

Sodium Sulfite for softening gelatine layer before coating?

Do you think fixing unexposed silver gelatine paper in plain sodium thiosulfate and then treating it in sodium sulfite + rinsing will make life easier later when coating alt. process emulsions? AFAIK, sodium sulfite softens gelatine (also fibers in paper) letting the paper release sodium thiosulfate quicker and more easily. Perhaps this practice will increase the paper's acceptance for other emulsions...

What do you think?

Thanks in advance,
Loris Medici
Istanbul, Turkey

dancqu · Oct 28, 2005

Loris Medici said:
Do you think fixing unexposed silver gelatine
paper in plain sodium thiosulfate and then treating
it in sodium sulfite + rinsing will make life easier later
when coating alt. process emulsions?

I'd think it a standard practice. After fixing, rinse,
hca, wash. Dan

Allan Connery · Oct 30, 2005

CraigK said:
I wrote my method down and distributed quite a few copies of a small booklet that explains how I coat baryta paper with alt process solutions. I am happy to report that most who have read the book have been able to produce nice prints on a wide variety of papers with a variety of processes....including the ever-fickle Chrysotype process.

Currently I am updating the booklet and converting it to a PDF available as a free download on my soon-to-be-developed website so that all my give it a whirl.

Sounds very useful, Craig. I'm looking forward to your website (though I wouldn't say no to an e-mail of the PDF.)

Cheers,
Allan Connery
Calgary

Jeremy · Oct 31, 2005

CraigK said:
Anywho, we are talking about Baryta paper for PT/PD (and other processes) are we? Well I wrestled that bull a while back and eventually learned to tame it to my satisfaction. I wrote my method down and distributed quite a few copies of a small booklet that explains how I coat baryta paper with alt process solutions. I am happy to report that most who have read the book have been able to produce nice prints on a wide variety of papers with a variety of processes....including the ever-fickle Chrysotype process.

Currently I am updating the booklet and converting it to a PDF available as a free download on my soon-to-be-developed website so that all my give it a whirl.

I can't wait, Craig. Especially since I've got a bunch of old photo paper in the freezer which isn't worth much to print on. I knew there was a reason to keep it around....

jimcollum · Nov 2, 2005

if you're still keeping a list, i would be interested in participating in the co-op

Jim Collum

Rob Vinnedge · Mar 6, 2006

Mike,

Do you have an update yet?

Thanks,

Rob Vinnedge

andrewfrith · Mar 6, 2006

I'm intersted too in the group purchase if its still happening.

Claire Senft · Mar 6, 2006

Would this paper be super-coated?

Photo Engineer · Mar 6, 2006

I am presently testing a rather large sample of baryta paper. I have tested it in 3 surfaces of uncoated baryta and have gotten good results. More to come later.

PE

traupach · Mar 7, 2006

I would also be interested in participating in a "group purchase" if it happens.

Thomas R.

Claire Senft · Mar 7, 2006

PE what do you charge for used toilet paper? Is it single or double coated?
Is it in your opinion suited for warm toned prints?

Photo Engineer · Mar 7, 2006

Claire Senft said:
PE what do you charge for used toilet paper? Is it single or double coated?
Is it in your opinion suited for warm toned prints?

Sorry, used toilet paper? I don't get it.

As I said above, it is uncoated. That means baryta in vehicle (gelatin and humectants etc.) on paper. It is DW stock.

I coat directly on that. It works just fine. I will not be selling it at all. I will be buying it just like the rest of us. I have a pre-release sample for testing is all.

I have only tested neutral tone AgX emulsions in gelatin and cyanotype on it so far. They both seem to work well. I will be testing other alternate systems as well, as soon as possible.

Compared with plain, non-baryta papers, there is a big jump in sharpness. I need a slightly higher level of surfactant in order to coat smoothly. Both of these latter are to be expected.

PE

Jan Pietrzak · Mar 7, 2006

PE,

In coating some baryta raw stock with pt/pd all I got was a gooey mess.
What did I do wrong.

Jan Pietrzak

Photo Engineer · Mar 7, 2006

Jan Pietrzak said:
PE,

In coating some baryta raw stock with pt/pd all I got was a gooey mess.
What did I do wrong.

Jan Pietrzak

Jan;

I have not gotten to Pt/Pd yet so I cannot tell you. I have a kit sitting here to try and I'll let you know. Cyanotype went down well either directly or in gelatin. Direct application requires at least 2 coats due to the lower permeability of the baryta compared to the plain paper I had been using.

There are two types of baryta out there. One uses barium sulfate and another uses barium oxide. One is slightly acidic to neutral and the other is slightly alkaline. That is one possibility.

The other is that the baryta out there that I have tested has a lot of phenol in it as stabilizer. If the phenol reacts with the Pt/Pd salt in any way, you may form a phenolate salt that precicpitates. That is a way out guess as is the one above about the acid / base nature of the baryta.

Did you try to size it? That might help.

I'll get back to you on the Pt/Pd as soon as I test it myself.

BTW, I was told that as much as 100 years ago, photographers used baryta supports for making prints with all of these alternate processes and gained some very unique properties from it such as tone and gloss. Of course, we don't know what those barytas were exactly, but we can try nevertheless and we may benefit from it by either moving in to new territory or we may duplicate some of their unique results.

PE

Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger

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