Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger

Annie · Oct 11, 2005

I'm out....... cheers.

Zebra · Oct 11, 2005

If tested and well received for pt/pd than i am definitely interested.

Thanks,

Monty McCutchen

Jorge · Oct 11, 2005

Michael Mutmansky said:
Kevin said he couldn't get it to make a first rate print, and he tried a variety of methods. The other people who have tried it also apparently couldn't make it work either and abandoned it.

Unless this paper is different, I suspect it will be a bust for pt/pd at least, but it may make a good paper for other processes, including gum and carbon, and who knows what else.

---Michael

Well, it does not sound encouraging, have them send you a sample before we even commit to this, heck have them send me a sample too.

PJC · Oct 11, 2005

If this comes t pass, I would be interested in participating in the co-op.

Regards, Pete

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2005

Michael Mutmansky said:
Kevin said he couldn't get it to make a first rate print, and he tried a variety of methods. The other people who have tried it also apparently couldn't make it work either and abandoned it.

Unless this paper is different, I suspect it will be a bust for pt/pd at least, but it may make a good paper for other processes, including gum and carbon, and who knows what else.

---Michael

This is the baryta paper, right?

If it does not work for some applications, then why the interest in it?

The COT320 works fine for silver halide emulsions with some repellancy depending on batch.

PE

mikewhi · Oct 12, 2005

Michael Mutmansky said:
Kevin said he couldn't get it to make a first rate print, and he tried a variety of methods. The other people who have tried it also apparently couldn't make it work either and abandoned it.

Unless this paper is different, I suspect it will be a bust for pt/pd at least, but it may make a good paper for other processes, including gum and carbon, and who knows what else.

---Michael

Mike:

Just to be clear here, are you saying the VCCB unsensitized paper from Bergger, the subject of this thread, has been tested by one or more people and found to be 'unsuitable' for pt\pd coating?

-Mike

Michael Mutmansky · Oct 12, 2005

Mike,

I can't be absolutely positive that the paper Kevin tested last year is the exact same paper, but he did test a baryta paper from Bergger and found it unsuitable. He was excited about the prospects as is everyone on this thread is, but it didn't pan out.

It's possible that the paper is different in some fashion, as a year has gone by. Bergger France would probably be able to confirm whether the paper they had available then is the same or different.

I'm still willing to do some trials if we can get some, on the chance it is a different formulaton. Since nothing stands still in the photo industry, what we can get now may be a great product; we'll not know unti it is tested.

I'd love to have a fine grained paper like this for my pt/pd prints, so this was a bit of a downer when Kevin told me that he didn't have success with the paper he tried.

---Michael

mikewhi · Oct 12, 2005

OK, here is a summary so far:

People interested: 13
This is still open, so feel free to jump in if you're interested. There is no commitment, yet.

Issues:

1) TESTING for Suitability for Pt\Pd. Please read Michael Mutmansky's post. It is possible this paper we are considering is not the same paper. Even if it is, we will defenitely have to get someone good at this to test it. I know it costs money to do this, so if someone like Kerik is willing to test, I'm sure I can remove that barrier.

2) SIZES. Concensus seems to order a single size like 22x30 and we can cut it down.

3) SIZING. We don't know if it is sized or not - haven't heard from John about this yet.

4) SAMPLES. This is also pending.

-Mike

List of those interested (we lost Annie):

Clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
ole
Jeremy Moore
Scootermm
Mateo
Photo8x10
Michael Mutmansky
Nick Mulder
Zebra
PJC

Kerik · Oct 12, 2005

I am perfectly willing to run tests and am not worried about the cost of materials used to do the testing, but I suggest Michael, Jorge, Craig K (if he's willing) and anyone else intersted run tests, too.

dancqu · Oct 12, 2005

mikewhi said:
There has been some discussion on another thread for
an unsensitized baryta paper that would be suitable for
sensitizing using, for instance, Pt\Pd.

And Ag I'd hope.

Why the baryta? From my short study of the subject my
understanding is that a gelatine sizing with incorporated
barium sulfate is applied to the paper. There are
gelatine sized papers with no baryta within.

Why the baryta? My best guess; for it's snow white on
less than snow white wood pulp papers. Barium sulfate,
baryta, may be used as a painter's white pigment.

As for processing, at least Ag gelatine, Martin Reed
in his article Mysteries of the Vortex states that "The
dense baryta layer ... seems to be especially significant
in slowing thiosulfate removal." He washed hand coated
300g/m2 Cranes Parchment paper to a level of 0.015 g/m2
thiosulfate, in 10 minutes.

I follow this thread because I use graded silver gelatin
papers and may wish to CMY, Coat My Own. How about
some of those watercolor papers? Up to 800 plus g/m2,
AND single weights. There is some interest in lighter
weight papers. By a sheet or a few. Dan

mikewhi · Oct 13, 2005

Bumping

Rob Vinnedge · Oct 13, 2005

mikewhi said:
OK, here is a summary so far:

People interested: 13
This is still open, so feel free to jump in if you're interested. There is no commitment, yet.

Issues:

1) TESTING for Suitability for Pt\Pd. Please read Michael Mutmansky's post. It is possible this paper we are considering is not the same paper. Even if it is, we will defenitely have to get someone good at this to test it. I know it costs money to do this, so if someone like Kerik is willing to test, I'm sure I can remove that barrier.

2) SIZES. Concensus seems to order a single size like 22x30 and we can cut it down.

3) SIZING. We don't know if it is sized or not - haven't heard from John about this yet.

4) SAMPLES. This is also pending.

-Mike

List of those interested (we lost Annie):

Clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
ole
Jeremy Moore
Scootermm
Mateo
Photo8x10
Michael Mutmansky
Nick Mulder
Zebra
PJC

Mike,

I'm still interested!

Rob

Peter Schrager · Oct 14, 2005

paper

interested
Peter

mikewhi · Oct 14, 2005

OK, that bings up to 15 people. Thanks everyone.

-Mike

Clay
Jorge
Kerik
mikewhi
ole
Jeremy Moore
Scootermm
Mateo
Photo8x10
Michael Mutmansky
Nick Mulder
Zebra
PJC
Rob Vinnedge
Peter Schrader

mikewhi · Oct 18, 2005

At this point, we are waiting on samples to arrive from Europe. John does not know if the paper will have a gelatin coating yet. 15 people is not all that great of a response, so we'll see what pricing and paper size options are.

Once samples come in, I hope there will be some volunteers to try coating it and giving their feedback.

I and\or John will post more when we know.

-Mike

Jorge · Oct 18, 2005

mikewhi said:
At this point, we are waiting on samples to arrive from Europe. John does not know if the paper will have a gelatin coating yet. 15 people is not all that great of a response, so we'll see what pricing and paper size options are.

Once samples come in, I hope there will be some volunteers to try coating it and giving their feedback.

I and\or John will post more when we know.

-Mike

Mike, I will gladly test it. As a matter of fact since I have commited to a big purchase I would like to make sure I dont end up with 200 pounds of toilet paper..

Aggie · Oct 18, 2005

mikewhi said:
At this point, we are waiting on samples to arrive from Europe. John does not know if the paper will have a gelatin coating yet. 15 people is not all that great of a response, so we'll see what pricing and paper size options are.

Once samples come in, I hope there will be some volunteers to try coating it and giving their feedback.

I and\or John will post more when we know.

-Mike

I bet there are many more of us waiting to see what turns out from the tests. I for one would buy paper, if the experts in alt. processes deem the paper a good product. I just do not have the experience in such matters, but have avidly followed this thread.

matt miller · Oct 18, 2005

Aggie said:
I bet there are many more of us waiting to see what turns out from the tests. I for one would buy paper, if the experts in alt. processes deem the paper a good product. I just do not have the experience in such matters, but have avidly followed this thread.

ditto

mikewhi · Oct 18, 2005

Jorge said:
Mike, I will gladly test it. As a matter of fact since I have commited to a big purchase I would like to make sure I dont end up with 200 pounds of toilet paper..

Thanks Jorge!

I wonder if this will be basically like coating the back of regular Baryta paper? Does the back have the whiteners, too? If the paper does not have a gelatin coating, then it should feel just like the back of regular printing paper. It may boil down to being just like coating the back of fixed out bartya paper, without the hassle of dealing with the gelatin coating. However, if the whiteners are only on the surface, that is a different story.

Also, I have found that it is not possible to have too much toilet paper sitting around. I'm sure PhotoEngineer has some process to turn 300 wt paper into tissue paper laying around somewhere.

Why is your English so good, anyway?

-Mike

Photo Engineer · Oct 18, 2005

Anyone want any used toilet paper?

The back and the front of baryta papers have totally different surfaces and coating properties.

The back of baryta papers is unsized and uncoated. You will be coating on the raw fibers of whatever paper stock and chemical content is present. The front has a large quantity of baryta (barium sulfate) in gelatin and glycerine along with hardener, brightener, and tinting dyes.

If it was once a photo paper that you fixed, there will be at least one gelatin layer on top of the baryta layer than contained the emulsion before you fixed it out.

The front surface will contain any residue of surfactants applied during the coating process. The back surface will generally not have any surfactants present.

But hey, if it works, who cares, right?

PE

CraigK · Oct 18, 2005

Hi All,

My cyber ears began burning the other day as this topic heated up. I am sorry it has taken me so long to jump in but I was out in the wilderness of central Manitoba with a bunch of Frenchmen and their dogs....long story...

Anywho, we are talking about Baryta paper for PT/PD (and other processes) are we? Well I wrestled that bull a while back and eventually learned to tame it to my satisfaction. I wrote my method down and distributed quite a few copies of a small booklet that explains how I coat baryta paper with alt process solutions. I am happy to report that most who have read the book have been able to produce nice prints on a wide variety of papers with a variety of processes....including the ever-fickle Chrysotype process.

Currently I am updating the booklet and converting it to a PDF available as a free download on my soon-to-be-developed website so that all my give it a whirl.

This thread has sparked in interesting discussion and I would certainly be willing help out in any way I can. I would happily test any samples of non-sensitized baryta paper anyone wishes to send my way. I am sure that most such papers would be fine for the process. However, I've got to wonder why one would choose to special order non-sensitized paper for bayta pt/pd prints when using already sensitized paper is so simple and in fact dirt cheap.

For my work, I simply use sensitized paper that I fix out and wash before use. In essence, I de-sensitize my own paper. While I mainly use fresh, store bought papers I will not turn my nose up at a tall stack of out-dated paper that has been sitting in the stock room for a couple of years. Some of my best prints have been made on 20 year old Ilford Gallery paper that I got for free. I fixed, washed, cleared, dried and pressed over 200 sheets before coating some of them with a 80-20 mix of palladium/platinum....wait a minute, I think I just answered my own question. Getting some factory made, un-sensitized paper would save a bunch of steps wouldn't it? No more fixing, washing, clearing blah blah blah before printing.....hmmm, let me know how much this stuff will cost!

Dave Wooten · Oct 18, 2005

Count me in...rolls would be nice.

Dave in Vegas

mikewhi · Oct 19, 2005

CraigK said:
Hi All,
My cyber ears began burning the other day as this topic heated up. I am sorry it has taken me so long to jump in but I was out in the wilderness of central Manitoba with a bunch of Frenchmen and their dogs....long story...

Hi Craig!

No worries, what happens in Manitoba, stays in Manitoba......

Thanks for jumping in, I was hoping you would bring your expertise to the thread. This all started when I called John at Bergger and asked a simple question.......

You got the gist of the idea. Cuts down steps and we also can get very large sizes without having to hunt in the backrooms of dusty camera stores (like 22x30 or bigger).

The current open question is if there is a gelatin coating on the paper. John isn't sure if it will have it or not. We have to wait for the samples.

I wrote to John and he is waiting for samples. I don't know how many sheets he is getting, but I"m sure you'll get some to coat. Don't worry about that. I know Kerik will, too. In fact, the group is so small (about 17 or 18 so far) that everyone may get their own sample.

Welcome home!

-Mike Whiting

dancqu · Oct 19, 2005

mikewhi said:
Hi Craig! k
The current open question is if there is a gelatin coating
on the paper. John isn't sure if it will have it or not.

Not to mention the baryta. I'm puzzled by a seeming
insistence on baryta. If that paper came with the
gelatin but no included baryta would it be the
end of the world? Dan

Ole · Oct 19, 2005

dancqu said:
Not to mention the baryta. I'm puzzled by a seeming
insistence on baryta. If that paper came with the
gelatin but no included baryta would it be the
end of the world? Dan

If that came with a silver-halide emulsion, it would be Bergger Art Classic Silver Supreme. Great paper, for the right subject. The emulsion is more soaked into the paper than on baryta papers.

Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger

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