Interest in Co-op for Unsensitized Baryta Paper From Bergger

mikewhi

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Hi All:

There has been some discussion on another thread for an unsensitized baryta paper that would be suitable for sensitizing using, for instance, Pt\Pd.

I made contact with John at Bergger today about the possibility of a single bulk purchase of this paper, cut to various sizes. He is interested in providing this to the photographic community on a one-shot proposition where everyone gets a life-time supply at once, but he said he would also do it as on ongoing proposition if there was enough support for the product.

The paper he specified is the VCCB paper, which is described as a warm tone paper. John said the paper would be pulled from production prior to the emulsion being applied, which gives the warm base. Thus, the paper would be a pure white 300g/m2 glossy paper. John would have to order a 2,000lb roll of the paper from the mfgr and have it cut down to popular sizes to supply to us.

The question is: is there enough interest in this product to support John? Financing it would have to be along the lines of the Amidol co-op, so that people put money up front in the form of a non-refundable deposit and pay the balance on delivery. Unlike the Chinese Amidol arrangement, delivery is much more reliable so that should not worry us - we are dealing with an established company.

At this point, just about everything is up in the air. John needs to know that there is enough interest to proceed. If there is, then we can work out the details. Based on his past experience with people making promises but failing to follow-thru with money, there will be some financial commitment required - John will have to do that himself when he orders the huge roll. We, as buyers, should be willing to make the same commitment.

Let's please use this thread to indicate how much you are interested in being able to purchase this paper in various sizes and in various quantities. I don't have prices available right now. This is basically an interest-ony checkpoint - are you interested in this product? I understand that your interest level may change when the price is quoted, but for now -assuming the price is something you call reasonable - would you buy it?

Thank you.

-Mike
 

Jorge

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I am interested and would participate in the co op if it comes to pass...
 

Kerik

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Possibly interested, but wouldn't want to make a big $$ commitment without being able to try it first. I'd be looking for large sizes 16x20 or 20x24 if we have to stick to standard photo sizes.
 

Peter Schrager

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paper

I'm with Kerik on this. Since Bergger is an established company and this pans out it is worth their time to let someone like Kerik try it first. Only common sense dictates this....
Best, Peter
 

Photo Engineer

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I would not expect a guarantee that this will work. You should get a sample to test first and then order it. Is John willing to do that?

I have 2 samples of plain COT320 and their coating and adhesion properties differ. I have to resolve that before I go on.

Also, has anyone considered approaching someplace like the Formulary to see if they could handle the orders? They have ordered Bergger COT320 for their workshops and they supply it to customers. I know that they have a working agreement of some sort with Berggers. This might work out even better.

Before you jump though, get a small sample.

Make sure you can get the right sizes.

PE
 

Bergger USA

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I'll be happy to supply samples to a few of you for review. I'm waiting for some 11x14 stock from our warehouse in France.

If you find the stock to be acceptable, I'll ask for an opinion on sizes, then go from there on price, etc.

I prefer to handle this as a direct Bergger Products transaction. If I find the demand is high enough, then I'll invite my dealers that are fully authorized to carry the products.

I'll let Mike and Kerik know when I receive the samples. Any additional questions can be directed to me offline.

Best,

John Horowy
Bergger Products, Inc.
 
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There's several of us here who have more than enough experience to do some tests and determine if it is suitable for pt/pd and possibly a few other processes.

One thing to consider, however, is that Bergger is not known for giving price breaks for large orders or larger sizes of the same product, and considering this will be a 'special', it will almost certainly cost more than the straight VCCB paper, and probably more than the COT320 as well, so don't expect this to be a good deal on a paper supply.

It probably makes little sense to have multiple sizes of paper offered, except for the basic 8x10 or 11x14, and then a large size, possibly 22x30. I would be interested in the largest size, as I can tear it down for just about any logical size from there.

PE, what are you using the COT320 for? While I have noticed very subtle differences in batches, it has never given me any trouble when pt/pd printing, and has not caused me to make any adjustments in my process for that paper. I consider COT320 to be possibly the easiest paper to make a high quality pt/pd print on.


---Michael
 

Ole

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If this comes to pass, I might be interested in some 16x20" (since I shoot 12x16" among other weird sizes).
 
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John,

We were typing at the same time... It's good to see that you are monitoring APUG for things like this.

I think you might want to establish some ballpark pricing now, because I do think it will be an issue that may scare off some people, and it would be unfortunate if that happened at the very end after sizes and tests were made. People need a realistic understanding of the scale of the commitment before they can make a decision about their involvement.


---Michael
 

Bergger USA

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Michael,

I'll be happy to establish prices as soon as I get a ballpark myself. I contacted Guy via email and I'm sure we'll have some crude idea fairly soon.

Please be nice Michael, as it would be impossible for Bergger to charge more for this uncoated paper base than VCCB. You're making me out to be some kind of capitalist monster.

I'm more interested in supporting the art, not killing it.

Best,

John Horowy
Bergger Products, Inc.
 

Photo Engineer

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John, I contacted you several weeks ago at Bergger about this very subject. I have been trying to get Baryta paper from some source for quite a while. I would appreciate the opportunity to test your offering with my silver halide emulsions.

I am getting bubbles and repellancy with the 11x14 you sent about 2 weeks ago, but the coating quality is quite good nonetheless. The 8x10 that I have been using is slightly better in that regard.

I will call ASAP to discuss this with you.

PE
 

Jeremy

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I'm interested, but it would be based on testing and the price.
 

scootermm

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Jeremy Moore said:
I'm interested, but it would be based on testing and the price.

ditto to this...
and if Kerik and/or michael test it I would gladly trust their findings.
 

dancqu

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mikewhi said:
There has been some discussion on another thread
for an unsensitized baryta paper that would be suitable
for sensitizing ...

Are you sure such a product is not available
at our local ink-jet paper supply store?

Calendered papers are all around us. I know that
gelatined ink-jet papers are being made. Perhaps
some heavy, quality, photo ink-jet paper would
do as well.

I'm quite sure there must be a good selection of
papers. Sizing or calendering with baryta is still
in practice and for purposes other than
Pl, Pd, or Ag gelatin prints. Dan
 

Mateo

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I would be interested depending on the results and how easily it coats.
 

Michael A. Smith

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I believe Salto, in Belgium, has had a glossy, or medium glossy (not ferrotyped glossy) paper specially made for them (by a paper company in Belgium) on which to make platinum prints. I will find out in a couple of weeks when I am over there.

This is not to take anything away from Bergger. John Horowy is a good friend, but if indeed Salto is making such a paper I could try to get them to send a few sheets to those who are doing the testing. I do know they have made platinum prints with A Dmax of 2.4 and I think some of the richness has to do with the paper.
 
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Bergger USA said:
Please be nice Michael, as it would be impossible for Bergger to charge more for this uncoated paper base than VCCB. You're making me out to be some kind of capitalist monster.

John,

Maybe you misunderstood my message. 'Specials' almost always cost more from any manufacturer because they are not part of the normal manufacturig process. They require special attention to be done correctly, and it is normally reflected in the cost, so this is to be expected.

Nobody has targeted you as a monster. I think you need a little thicker skin.

My point about the pricing was that you charge the exact same price ($1.58) per square foot for 8x10 sheets as you do 20x24 for the COT320, and there's no reason to believe that it would be any different with this paper.

I just don't want people thinking that the paper is going to be inexpensive. Some people print pt/pd on fixed out baryta paper, which can be quite inexpensive, especially if they find out of date paper to use. I don't think this paper will have comparable pricing, and I want people to be realistic about the paper cost.


---Michael
 

nick mulder

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Interesting...

Any idea of a minimum order for a single person wanting in ? (8x10 or 11x14)
 

sanking

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Will this paper have a gelatin size?

If so I would be very interested in trying it with carbon printing.


Sandy


 

Jorge

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psvensson said:
Have you tried household bleach? It will take the emulsion off any paper.

Yep, along with the baryta and you then will have to neutralize it so that it does not yellow with age. Trust me, this way is better.

OTOH we need to come down and place our feet on ground before we continue with this. A 2000 pound roll is almost a metric ton. Let say that the Bergger paper is 200 gsm, then we have about 5 sheets (each one square meter) per Kg, multiply by 1000 to make a ton and we have 5000 sheets. Now B&S sells COT320 20x24 for approx 6/sheet. Lets say we get a big break and each sheet costs us $3. This is $15000. Now, I would commit to buy 200 sheets if the paper works, this is only $600 dollars. We are going to need at least 23 people who commit to make this expense. Can we get this many people to commit?
 

fhovie

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I have not tried this but - can't you fix regular FB paper and then soak any kind of silver nitrate soup into the existing emulsion and use it? Wouln't this be cheaper than the cost of a manufacturer making a special product?
 

Nick Zentena

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Why cut it to size? Couldn't it be sold in rolls and cut down by the user? It would be easier. No need to cut multiple sizes by the company. No need for different boxes. It would be easier for the buyers. Just cut what you need when you need it.

Or would rolls complicated things some how?
 

Jorge

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sanking said:
Will this paper have a gelatin size?

If so I would be very interested in trying it with carbon printing.


Sandy

As I understand it the idea is not to have a gelatin size to be able to coat pt/pd easier. If the gelatin adheres to the baryta easily for normal coating, I dont see why the gelatin for a carbon print would be different. It would be nice if they send you a piece to try, even if you just print some step wedges.
 
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