Instructions on how to hoard film

RattyMouse said:

This flies in the face of most of the wisdom in this entire forum.

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This gave me a good laugh. Do not confuse the current internet fad with wisdom.

Tell you what, get back to us in five or ten years when your horde of frozen film is consumed. Maybe, then you can legitimately talk about wisdom.

Good luck.

Helinophoto said:

Nah....
- Buy a freezer-box for cheap/used/get one for free
- Put film in said box
- Put box on "on", leave to simmer.

The energy-usage hasn't actually affected by personal budget the way photography in general has

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Exactly! The new fridges (especially my mini fridge for film) only costs around $60/year to run.

Film certainly fogs with age, and any idiot who says otherwise is fooling himself. Helping to prevent the fogging from happening as quickly is a "no-brainer" ... If you have one

Helinophoto said:

Nah....
- Buy a freezer-box for cheap/used/get one for free
- Put film in said box
- Put box on "on", leave to simmer.

The energy-usage hasn't actually affected by personal budget the way photography in general has

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to each their own, film i have had in a cube fridge and on the shelf the show no difference to my eyes
but the. again i am not the type of person to waste time and energy with sensitometrics
i just stick film in a camera, expose, process and print it .....

Wouldnt hoard unless it's going out of sale. If it is, I presume most customers would hoard anyways.
Something I have learnt from personal experience is that the hoarded stuff is something that I'll somehow never end up using - I would buy to use - maybe enough for a couple of years at best. Not hoard.
Besides if something's gonna be dead n out, better to make use of whats available and will be easy to procure.

Sent from Tap-a-talk

polyglot said:

eh? in 120, there's at least 400TX, TMY2, HP5, Delta 400, Foma 400, Rollei 400S... how many 400-speed B&W emulsions do you really need?

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Whoa, hold your horses man, why are photography folks so sensitive?

You know as well as I do, that half the fun on this, is finding a film you actually like and 'fits the bill' as it were concerning look and feel, workflow, preferred developers etc.

Personally, I don't like Tmax, Delta or Foma. I can make photos with them, sure, but I much prefer Tri-X and Hp5, only tried rollei 80s and 200s, Rollei film are rather expensive.

Point was that there were MORE options for 400 in 35mm, which is icky, because ISO 400 usually is (for me anyway) much more usable in medium format.

More options for 400 in 35? I only know of Bergger BRF+ which is ORWO NP 27 plus cine film, a genuine film available as 135 only.
At the moment I can think of 9 ISO 400 emulsions available in 120.

Well, on B&H there are 9 35mm and 7 120, there used to be 6, but now the Rollei RPX is available for $11 a pop.
Depends on where you live i suppose, not everyone lives in the US and are able to buy from Freestyle, B&H and other great shops.

Most important thing right now though, is that the films (still readily) available in 120, are all from quality brands. (Rollei is so spotty in their delivery that it's almost always out of stock when I check and Lucky and other brands of that type isn't particularly interesting due to dodgy quality and quality control).

If we were all( it might not need anything like 100% of film users) to follow the philosophy of buying our next 5 years of film usage tomorrow then I imagine we could close Ilford, Kodak and Fuji for a long enough layoff of all its workers to make any future re-start most unlikely.

Just a thought

pentaxuser

When Kodak Ultra Color and Kodak Vivid Color were discontinued, I brought up everything I could find in the formats I use. I buy it up to keep that stock from the hoarders.

pentaxuser said:

If we were all( it might not need anything like 100% of film users) to follow the philosophy of buying our next 5 years of film usage tomorrow then I imagine we could close Ilford, Kodak and Fuji for a long enough layoff of all its workers to make any future re-start most unlikely.

Just a thought

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If we did that every year, we could keep them all in business indefinitely.

Truzi said:

If we did that every year, we could keep them all in business indefinitely.

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True but if I have understood you correctly your statement would have all of us buy the next 5 years stock each year. Given our average age on APUG this might mean that there will be a lot of film available for e-bay in a few years when we depart this life

pentaxuser

BradS said:

This gave me a good laugh. Do not confuse the current internet fad with wisdom.

Tell you what, get back to us in five or ten years when your horde of frozen film is consumed. Maybe, then you can legitimately talk about wisdom.

Good luck.

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Well, uh, here I am. I've just worked my way through a 4-year stash of Acros. As per my previous post, buying it early was a good move because it means I paid half as much per roll, and it was just as good when I finished it off as when I started it. Sure, Acros is still available, but "hoarding" it saved me about $300 in price increases and $200 in postage costs compared to buying it every 6mo. Given that success, I just bought up on Acros again, probably enough to last me 3-4 years.

I loaded up on 4x5 IR820 as it was going out of production; shooting IR is by far my favourite genre and I would not be able to do that unless I had my frozen stash. Yes it will fog a bit and lose sensitivity over the next decade, but it will still produce awesome images that I could make no other feasible way; I suspect I'll be one of maybe 3 people globally who can still make LF IR images in 2020. You want to tell me that I should give up my favourite medium for which there are no substitutes?

BradS said:

This gave me a good laugh. Do not confuse the current internet fad with wisdom.

Tell you what, get back to us in five or ten years when your horde of frozen film is consumed. Maybe, then you can legitimately talk about wisdom.

Good luck.

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Do you REALLY think that no one has yet hoarded film for 5 to 10 years yet? That there's no current wisdom on this?

Wow..................

polyglot said:

Well, uh, here I am. I've just worked my way through a 4-year stash of Acros. As per my previous post, buying it early was a good move because it means I paid half as much per roll, and it was just as good when I finished it off as when I started it. Sure, Acros is still available, but "hoarding" it saved me about $300 in price increases and $200 in postage costs compared to buying it every 6mo. Given that success, I just bought up on Acros again, probably enough to last me 3-4 years.

I loaded up on 4x5 IR820 as it was going out of production; shooting IR is by far my favourite genre and I would not be able to do that unless I had my frozen stash. Yes it will fog a bit and lose sensitivity over the next decade, but it will still produce awesome images that I could make no other feasible way; I suspect I'll be one of maybe 3 people globally who can still make LF IR images in 2020. You want to tell me that I should give up my favourite medium for which there are no substitutes?

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Want some of mine? I don't know how I'll shoot all 175 sheets of 4x5 EFKE IR820 before 2020...

Back to the orginal Question.

I discovered Neopan 400 in the form of Legacy Pro 400, It was good and cheep. Seems I have gone through 500ft of the Buck and about 200 rolls of 36 exp. Never did discover it in time to get the 120.

I bought some of the Neopan 400 at the time I bought the legacy pro to convince myself it was the same stuff.

Once the Lgacy pro went away for the seond time, and while I still had 100 rolls of it in my fridge, I went on a kind of death watch on the neopan 400. Every time I bought anything form B&H,Freestyle or Adorama, I added 10 rolls of neopan 400, and noted the emulsion number. Always 281 001, 281 002 ... 281 006.

Those were stached to use after my Legacy pro Ran out. I think I have one 100ft roll still in the freezer, and half of another loaded in Cassettes, I have run out of the 36 exp rolls of the legacy pro. I would have to check the freezer, but I proably have 60-100 rolls of Neopan 400 left. I suppose it is hoarding.

I like to switch between 400TX (Arista Premium), HP5+, Foma 400(Edu Ultra) and ORWO N74, as well as the Neopan. Beside my computer at the moment is my last bulk roll of Arista Premium, waiting for me to make Bulk loading labels. I have probably 60 rolls of each bought when they were on sale. (the HP5 in the buy 2 get one offer for example)

Anyway that is how I became a film hoarder.

Why hoard?

You best support the companies who still make film by continuously buying it when you need it. Neopan 400? It's basically gone. Even if you think your pictures will be so much better with it than HP5 or Tri-X, you're actually doing yourself and the rest of the market a disservice, because you're not creating new demand for film.
You can continue to try to find Neo 400 in 120 and solve a short term problem, all while making a more long term problem worse.

Who wants there to be film in the future?

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Why hoard?

You best support the companies who still make film by continuously buying it when you need it. Neopan 400? It's basically gone. Even if you think your pictures will be so much better with it than HP5 or Tri-X, you're actually doing yourself and the rest of the market a disservice, because you're not creating new demand for film.
You can continue to try to find Neo 400 in 120 and solve a short term problem, all while making a more long term problem worse.

Who wants there to be film in the future?

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I obviously disagree that buying patterns have any effect whatsoever on the viability of a product. My 100 or 200 rolls is NOTHING in the grand scheme of total sales. Because we don't all buy our hoards on the one day every three years, the demand as perceived by the manufacturers evens out to exactly the same level as it would have if we all bought smaller lots. What matters is the total quantity of film consumed. Want to support film? Shoot MORE of it, no matter when you buy it.

Maybe shoot more fairly-fresh film, not secondhand crap that's 15 years old and wonky. If you take the logic to its extreme though, we might as well advocate to abandon Kodak and Fuji ASAP because we don't trust them to be here in 5 years and to throw all our purchasing behind Ilford, who surely will. I guarantee that that approach means we won't have a Kodak or Fuji in a lot less than 5 years. Moralising about what people buy is bad enough but moralising about when they buy it is paranoid and intrusive.

If you want to get picky about second-order effects like demand patterns, then larger/less-frequent buyers are good for the system because they reduce market frictions by moving larger lots with less shipping/handling/inventory-update labour. Don't waste your shopkeeper's time, buy minimum quantities of 40 rolls! No?

RattyMouse said:

Do you REALLY think that no one has yet hoarded film for 5 to 10 years yet? That there's no current wisdom on this?

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Your assumption is obviously false and your conclusion is, of course also false - not to mention absurd. (what was the goal?)


There are many wise people here on APUG. A few of them have even shared their wisdom on this matter right here in this thread. Let's take polyglot as an example....

polyglot said:

Buy it, put it in sealed bags, write the purchase date on the bag, put it in the bottom of the freezer. Done.

Yeah, your stock will eventually run out and you'll eventually need to learn to use a new film, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep using your favourite film for another decade, if that's the film that you understand and know you work well with. The only caveat I'd put is "don't buy more than you can use before it starts to degrade", unless of course you intend to sell it at a profit in 3 years time.

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and he's also, apparently accumulated some experience storing films in the freezer....so, there is some sound advice from a knowlegeable person.

Several others also shared their wisdom. If I may paraphrase, "buy no more than you think you'll use in two years", "don't bother to hoarde, just buy and use - live in the present" and finally, "learn to adapt to change". Notice that was also part of the advice offered by polyglot above. The ability to adapt to change is and always has been necessary for photographers. If you do not, you will wither and die as a photogrpher (metaphorically speaking of course).

My own personal experience, and I have considerable experience using film stored well beyond the date printed on the box, is that the fridge is better than the freezer and for robust films like Tri-X, "a cool dry place" is probably not too bad either...As a specific example, I acquired some thirty rolls of Tri-X in 2003. The dates on the boxes ranged from 1973 to 1996. It had been stored in a dresser drawer and in a box in the closet. It was not stored in the freezer, nor was it ever in the fridge. In fact, the house was not even air conditioned and so, it was subjected to conditions that were not what anybody would call "cool". I used every roll...rated them all at EI200 and processed in HC-100 (1+39). All were plenty good enough. There was considerable fog in some and almost none in others but, no emulsion defects. That's 30 year old film that was just laying around the house.

I have also mistakenly purchased film that was stored for an undisclosed time in a freezer. None of it was more than five years beyond date. Some of the color film was fine some was far from fine. Mostly, the color film did not fare well. The B&W was no better and no worse than those twenty and thirty year old rolls of casually stored Tri-X. All of it smelled of freezer burn. My conclusion, the freezer is overkill at best, adds complexity to usage and can have some unpleasant side effects.

Thus, I normally store film in the fridge. It is the environment that most closely conforms to manufacturers' recommendations What's more, film suffers no nasty side effects in the fridge. In my expereience, the fridge at about 50~60 degrees F is good. Perhaps, optimal. There are several reasons for this. Chief among them being the manufacturers' own instructions..."store in a cool dry place"...notice they, none of them say anything about freezing. Kodak used to call out temperature ranges, maybe they still do. Those ranges did not extend below 50 degrees F. Stores that cater to professional photographers (used to) keep film in a refrigerator - not a freezer. At least one that I know of still does. I also notice that they only store the color film in the fridge. All the B&W is out on shelves at a comfortable, climate controlled ambient temperature.

Ultimately, you'll do what you want. That much seems plainly obvious. Perhaps, you'll collect some evidence from which you may form your own opinions.


and finally as a sort of post script, I'll observe that....
There is also much idiocy on the internet...people exhibiting herd behaviour...not thinking just taking what they read on the internet to the next level...eventually, it gets to the absurd. To wit: Just last weekend I was reading a post from somebody who had taken the "store the film in the freezer" thing to the extreme. Apparently, he would wind the partially exposed roll of film back into the canister, remove film from the camera and store the partially exposed roll of fim in the freezer....repeatedly cycling the film from freezer to camera and back several times in the course of exposing the roll. This is the absurd behaviour that comes from extrapolating the model well beyond the observed data. People think if a little is good more is better and even more is The Best. It gets absurd.

So, the fact that a bunch of people post on the internet that they do X, does not mean that doing X is good nor that doing X+1 is better - even though it might seem logical that X is a good idea...so, again, do what you want. Beware of becoming absurd or obsolete.

I stocked up on TXP 220, since it was the last B&W film in 220. I keep it in the original boxes, and since each roll is sealed anyway, it doesn't need anything more.

I've bought a little more FP-3000B than I normally might, since it's in its last run, but not so much, because instant film isn't a long-term proposition anyway. I store it flat in the fridge. Instant doesn't freeze well.

I have a small chest freezer (3.6 cu. ft/0.1 cu m) with my film of various formats--not really hoarded, but I shoot a variety of formats, so I have enough film to keep the freezer full. It keeps it cold and doesn't use an extraordinary amount of energy and wasn't particularly expensive (maybe $200 USD plus shipping and tax). Having a separate freezer for the past few years, I think it's a good practice, because it stays closed most of the time--certainly more than the food freezer does, and that keeps humidity down, even in Hawai'i with the freezer outdoors on the balcony. It's not self-defrosting, so I don't have to worry about freeze and defrost cycles.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Why hoard?

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Because I like Neopan 400, and it's not being made anymore. The time to enjoy this film is NOW or never.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

You best support the companies who still make film by continuously buying it when you need it. Neopan 400? It's basically gone. Even if you think your pictures will be so much better with it than HP5 or Tri-X, you're actually doing yourself and the rest of the market a disservice, because you're not creating new demand for film.
You can continue to try to find Neo 400 in 120 and solve a short term problem, all while making a more long term problem worse.

Who wants there to be film in the future?

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I'm buying 135 sized Neopan 400, not 120. I buy plenty of Ilford HP5 and Delta 3200 for my 120 shooting needs. I am certain that Ilford will survive quite easily even if I go ahead and buy a few hundred more rolls of Neopan 400.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Why hoard?

You best support the companies who still make film by continuously buying it when you need it. Neopan 400? It's basically gone. Even if you think your pictures will be so much better with it than HP5 or Tri-X, you're actually doing yourself and the rest of the market a disservice, because you're not creating new demand for film.
You can continue to try to find Neo 400 in 120 and solve a short term problem, all while making a more long term problem worse.

Who wants there to be film in the future?

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+1

I'd rather have a cache for immediate use and be a customer for film making companies to keep making film. Hoarding (as I understood it here - wrt going out of stock/sale film/co) goes against the bit about film making companies needing customers to keep making them.

David A. Goldfarb said:

I've bought a little more FP-3000B than I normally might, since it's in its last run, but not so much, because instant film isn't a long-term proposition anyway. I store it flat in the fridge. Instant doesn't freeze well.

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Interesting that you should say that - have you had the same exp with FP100c as well? I had fp100c in the freezer for about 8-9 months now, and it worked fine - only needs a little bit more time to thaw than regular film.
Humidity is probably on the lower side here, wonder if that makes for the difference?

David A. Goldfarb said:

Having a separate freezer for the past few years, I think it's a good practice, because it stays closed most of the time--certainly more than the food freezer does, and that keeps humidity down, even in Hawai'i with the freezer outdoors on the balcony. It's not self-defrosting, so I don't have to worry about freeze and defrost cycles.

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The temp is below freezing, and more or less constant with frost-free freezers, right? So, how would it hurt?

Been planning to get a separate freezer, but I haven't bought enough film yet, to justify having one - of course, in a month or two, thats gonna change.

analoguey said:

Interesting that you should say that - have you had the same exp with FP100c as well? I had fp100c in the freezer for about 8-9 months now, and it worked fine - only needs a little bit more time to thaw than regular film.
Humidity is probably on the lower side here, wonder if that makes for the difference?

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I haven't frozen FP-100c, so maybe it holds up better to freezing than some older films, like the Polaroid films, but with Polaroid it was always discouraged. My impression is that it isn't a humidity issue so much as an effect on the chemical pods from freezing.

The temp is below freezing, and more or less constant with frost-free freezers, right? So, how would it hurt?

Been planning to get a separate freezer, but I haven't bought enough film yet, to justify having one - of course, in a month or two, thats gonna change.

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As I understand it, frost-free freezers don't maintain a constant temperature, and humidity goes up with the temperature during the defrost cycle.

The peel apart films shouldn't be frozen because the pods freeze and break when they expand....

The idea is that you shouldn't buy someone else's film and should always buy new is kind of silly, and what I mean by this is that there's a certain amount of film out there, it's already been produced, and yes a couple people will end up hoarding it forever and then eventually it will just be thrown out in the trash when it's no good and they die, but mostly people will eventually end up using it, so there's no point in saying that you shouldn't hoard some film and then use it up and then hoard some more, because no matter what the film it needs to be used, so it's going to be used anyway, so whether you hoard old film it's expired, or you order brand-new film that was just made, or you buy it roll for role, you're still consuming film at the same rate it doesn't matter at all...

thank you brad!